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winkerwanker
Posts: 2414
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Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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winkerwanker wrote:
GO EAT SNAKES amirite God?
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Woodard
Posts: 40
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Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Every time Silent Hill 3 is mentioned in this forum I have this duty to post the great unfinished review I started about that game so many years ago for this very site.
Why do I somehow know people discuss this game here even though I rarely visit? I really don't even want to think about the implications.
Anyways, posted again, for like the fifth time, the great unfinished Silent Hill 3 review. Back when I had confidence. Sort of.
Me, years ago. Oh, so many years ago wrote:
In the month preceding the U.S release of Silent Hill 3, I’d managed to inadvertently do two things to help me get ready for it.
The first was I stumbled across my old DVD copy of Jacob’s Ladder, which I had long assumed lost in my families’ move to a new house about four years ago. The significance of the movie to Silent Hill is obvious to anyone whose seen and played the two, but for those who haven’t done one or the other, it’s best said that Silent Hill is frequently referred to as Jacob’s Ladder: The game.
The other, and perhaps most importantly in understanding the nature of Silent Hill 3’s story, was I started to listen to Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds’ album: Murder Ballads.
Nick Cave is frequently referred to, and somewhat affectionately, as a poorman’s cross of Tom Waits and Leonard Cohen.
With a heroin addiction.
His album Murder Ballads is quite true to the title; it’s a collection of songs about Murder. Some traditional, most original, plus a Bob Dylan cover thrown in for good mix. Aside from the Bob Dylan track it’s quite easy to categorize the songs into two types: there are those that lament murder, and those that revel in it.
“The Kindness of Strangers” laments the death of Merry Bellows. It’s a tragic song complete with a spoken (sung) moral. Told from the perspective of some unnamed party, as though he is just someone who read the story about a murder in a local newspaper.
So Mothers keep your girls at home
Don’t let them journey out alone
Tell them this world is full of danger
And to Shun the company of strangers
O poor Mary Bellows
Where as “The Curse Of Millhaven”, told from the perspective of the young female teenage killer Loretta, is a song in love with itself. Opening with the joyful shouts/screams of the band members that segues into a brief oompa-lumpa type sound. Goddamn if the song doesn’t love singing about killing people.
Since I was no bigger than a weavil they’ve been saying
I was evil
That if “bad” was a boot then I’d fit it
That I’m a wicked young lady, but I’ve been trying
hard lately
O fuck it! I’m a monster! I admit it!
So getting to the point. Silent Hill is a cover, an imitation of horror. A Dean Koontz story told by David Lynch.
Silent Hill 2 laments horror.
Silent Hill 3 fucking loves horror.
One of the main keys to a good horror story, or a good ghost story, is tragedy. Sorrow. Unfathomable grief. From the base of suffering comes the terror. To bring it back it Jacob’s Ladder, what makes the film so memorable is not the fact that it’s one of the few genuinely creepy films that holds up over time (due partly, no doubt, to Adrienne Lynne’s decision to do all the effects “In Camera” as opposed to some post-production technique) is not so much unsettling imagery, but the genuinely affecting story of a man going through purgatory, attempting to reconcile with his regrets in order to reach salvation. Never mind that the means for his salvation lies in Mcaughly Culkin.
Or take the less theologically heady The Shining (the movie adaptation that is), it’s not the isolated hotel, the disturbing images within the haunted hotel, that makes it memorable. It’s a father driven to the point that he would attempt to kill his family with an axe while doing a Johnny Carson impersonation that makes it linger. I have no doubts that should I ever drive my father to that point, it wouldn’t be so different a situation. Though I’m sure that I could sway him back with the warm glowity-glow of television.
But the main point is that any supernatural, or extremely horrific, plot point should be used to make us understand the fundamental every day tragedy that is the focal point of the great horror stories.
The other way to go as an alternative is retaining the mystery. If you can explain everything away at the end, then to some degree you’ve fucked up. In a story that details something unknown (and isn’t sci-fi) you can’t make it completely known. Because it cheapens that feeling of “what the hell is going on?” when at the end, you can explain it all away. It’s not scary when you know what happened, that feeling of unease when presented with infinite possibilities, even those beyond literal description, is forever gone.
It’s like David Lynch said when discussing Twin Peaks, “A great mystery doesn’t offer a solution” because it’s not ever knowing the answer that keeps it alive and fascinating. Once you tell what it’s all about, then quite honestly, who gives a fuck?
Now a horror story doesn’t have to be both. In fact, it’s probably better to stick to one. The mystery, or the tragedy. It can mix elements of both… but if the heart of it is a tragedy, then you need some solid explanations, and if the heart is the unknown, the you must never explain it fully.
It’s the mystery that makes the original Silent Hill work so well. As I said, the underlying story of the original Silent Hill is pure B movie material. Quiet mid-American town hides something sinister… drugs are involved… evil cult tries to resurrect it’s god and so forth. What makes it so endlessly fascinating is that connecting all the dots is left up to the player. He/She has to analyze everything, not just narrative information, but the environment he plays in. The enemies he faces. The ending he receives (out of a total of four, plus a joke ending) to come to any sort of conclusion. I’d even venture to say that part of the reason the story is so highly regarded is that there exists something of a definitive plot guide, written by President Evil (A.K.A Dan Birlew, who has gone on to become a Guide writer for BradyGames. Incidentally, he apologizes for the Final Fantasy IX guide, and would like you to know it wasn’t his fault.).
Though I have no doubt it’s about 99.9% dead on in it’s interpretation, there still remains the fact that it’s one fan’s interpretation, though well informed and knowledgeable as it is. See, when he wrote the official Brady Games guide to Silent Hill 2 and had the opportunity to ask several questions concerning the SH1 story to the Konami staff, he was answered with either “There is no relation between the situation of the first game and the new game Silent Hill 2." Or "The focus is the game at hand, which is not similar to the previous product." Though sometimes he was granted an "That is an accurate description."
There is this wonderful feeling to the original Silent Hill that even though every aspect to it is deliberate on the part of the creators; even they do not know the full extent of what they created. That it sort of grew on it’s own. That even they can not explain everything the player experiences. And it’s because of that, that the first Silent Hill still makes me uncomfortable to this day.
Silent Hill 2 is the tragedy focused entry to the series. Though there is no attempt to explain why Silent Hill is the way it is in the story, it isn’t so much in the interest of mystery (though there are tidbits thrown in here and there to flesh out the history of the town to those interested) but because it’s irrelevant. It’s not about the town, it’s about why the main character James comes to the town. It’s about why the three other supporting characters came to the town. In short, it’s about guilt. If Jacob’s Ladder was the aesthetic influence of Silent Hill, then it is the narrative influence on Silent Hill 2. It is a journey through purgatory in which how the player actually plays the game decides his outcome. Though frustrating for attempts to reach alternate endings, it is such an interesting idea for determining endings that I can overlook the slightly flawed, and almost subjective manner, in which endings are determined (for “In the Water” you have to not heal often after receiving damage, examine the knife that Angela gave you after contemplating suicide with it and so on…). If you’re suicidal, then you ain’t gonna receive forgiveness. You’ll receive punishment. Look for your dead wife in earnest, by healing yourself and looking at her picture, and you might make it out of Silent Hill with hope for the future… and so on.
A friend of mine from school had never played the original Silent Hill. He started with part 2. He said he was terrified by it, but was disappointed by the end because it didn’t explain why “everything was so fucked up in that town”. At that point I had to explain the idea of subjective storytelling and the fact that facts don’t matter so much in this kind of story, as do perceptions of the characters. When he wasn’t quite sure how to interpret that, I just brought up Fight Club as an example. Love it or hate it, Fight Club may be the most educational film in terms of narrative technique this generation. I’ll come back to David Fincher a little latter incidentally.
This is what makes Silent Hill 2 such an interesting “survival horror” game. Even on the hardest difficulty level, the game is a lot easier than say, the easy setting on the Resident Evil remake. Sure, you can attribute that partially to the fact that you can move forward and backwards while using your weapon. But it really comes down to the fact that the “monsters” aren’t the threat, aren’t the true evil, but rather the character you control is.
This could be an interesting discussion as to forcing a player to control someone whom they may be morally be opposed to, but I’m not here to really discuss Silent Hill 2. Praise or Bury, I’m here to talk about Silent Hill 3.
Silent Hill 3 tries to combine the mystery and tragedy of the first two games, and because of this doesn’t end up with a particularly interesting story. It is a story that is told as well as it can be, and if you had to make a direct sequel to Silent Hill 1 (yeah, fuck you, I’m spoiling it for you) then you probably couldn’t come up with much better, it reveals as much about the original as it has to without telling every little detail or getting bogged down in too much “ahhhh! So that’s what happened!” moments (though in an odd way, the one scene that does it is possibly the best narrative moment in the game. But due mostly to aesthetic reasons, which I’ll get in to in a bit).
To borrow the words of the Silent Hill 3’s scenario writer (and writer of SH2… and maybe 1? I’m too lazy to look at the manual) Hiroyuki Owaku concerning SH3 “The feeling of fear prevailing in Silent Hill 3 differs from that Silent Hill 2. In Silent Hill 2 we tried to create a sense of fear sustained by silence. That silence lying within each individual which is progressively transformed into anxiety. It was a kind of fear that built up little by little. Gradually it escalated into horror. For Silent Hill 3, a different approach was used. We wanted to create a more violent, direct feeling of fear.”
For better or worse, this effect had been masterfully achieved. Where as in Silent Hill 2 you couldn’t help but feel “this isn’t worth finding some dead bitch, I’m not going any further” In Silent Hill 3 you tend to feel like “I have to keep moving to get the fuck out of here!”. The game has such an immediate visceral effect that was not present in the previous two, that even before you know the situation your character is in, you fear. You don’t fear the fact that your character may die so much as you’ll witness something you really don’t want to. Well sort of…
I have to admit that even though my first playthrough was set to the easy action level, I just had to pause the game in the opening sequence. The sound design is so aggressive (done by series veteran sound designer and music composer Akira Yamaoka) that I had to take my headphones off. The particular enemy that unnerved me so much makes this kind of sound that was…
Well, remember in Dumb and Dumber, when Jim Carrey does the self-described “most annoying sound in the world”? How it was both annoying and funny? This sound was both annoying and terrifying, which essentially means it was anxiety-inducing. I mean real anxiety. Increased pulse rate and heart palpitations. It is strongly recommended that those highly susceptible to stress not play the game with headphones on.
Of course, adding to the stress in the more combat and overall action oriented gameplay. Enemies are more aggressive than in the previous two games. And remember those random drops into nothingness formed by the metal grates in the original Silent Hill? Well now you can actually fall into them. Add to that several instant death sequences and you get the feeling that for the first time in the series, the fear of having your character actually die has been factored in the scare… uhhh, factor.
Which may be one of the problems with the game. The fact is in the first two games, the death of the character had a narrative importance. In the first game, Allesa was trying to prevent Harry from unwillingly completing Dahlia’s plan. In the second, it was James’ just reward. In this one, well it seems the point is to just add gaming stress on top of the intended horror stress. In the first two it served as something of an appropriate end… where as in this one, even the villain doesn’t want you to die. And neither does Heather. The possibility of death is meant to make sense only in terms of being a game. They do an admirable job of covering this by having the “monster” Valietel drag Heather off when she dies in certain areas of the game… as though her death was part of some master plan, but when completing the game you realize that it really doesn’t make much sense. But didn’t I talk about having a mystery with indefinable answers as one of the main joys of great horror? Well, I guess I forgot to mention that it doesn’t work when you see/feel the creators making excuses.
This could also stem from the choice of who the main character is. Don’t get me wrong, I think Heather, as written, is one of the more personable and believable characters you’ll see in a videogame horror franchise. But here’s the difference, Harry and James were both ordinary people. They weren’t exactly randomly caught up in the circumstances that led them to Silent Hill, but it wasn’t a given that they were the kind of people that would naturally end up in their respective horror situations.
Conceptually, the character of Heather must inevitably face Silent Hill and the manifest Hell it entails. Whereas the previous two games had a feeling of “Gee, doesn’t it suck for these two guys to be here. Sure, they made choices that brought them here, but damn!”. For heather it’s more of a case of “Man! She has no fucking clue what she is, and why she’s fighting these creepy things! Isn’t it fun fucking with her?”.
Lament and revelry. You can’t help but get the feeling that the creators are downright gleeful of the situations they put Heather in. NOTE: Heather the character, not the player who controls her. Obviously they loved terrifying the player in the first two games, but this time they actually seem to enjoy manipulating the character herself.
So if you’re going to be gleeful at manipulating a character whose supposed to be an “innocent”, how do you get away with it without seeming like a group of misogynist assholes?
Simple, you make the style retro-hip. Tragically retro-hip!
Silent Hill 3 is an odd, but strangely successful, merging of two kinds of chic; heroin and retro 70’s.
Heather could have come out of those Gap Ads some years ago...
Oh, and I feel Olivier is on the right track with his criticisms.
I feel that is also important to mention why Silent Hill 2 is such an important game.
For me at least, it the first and so far only, game to deal with sexuality in a mature way. |
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Ratoslov
Posts: 252
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Hm. That's a very thought-provoking review, Woodard. |
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Rud13
Posts: 3277
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| BURN IN HELL WOODWARD! |
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Mr. Apol
Posts: 279
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Guys, you know what's funny? You're all talking about the plot not being coherent and being poorly written, and Gans (in the issue of Fangoria I mentioned) takes note of this. He states something along the lines of "when I looked at the mythology and the story they had created in the first game, as compared to the later ones, I realized that these guys had no idea WHERE they were going with the first game."
Also, to whoever said that fan-made movie was going to suck, would you rather have Boll making it?
I really do have faith in Gans doing this right. Guess we'll find out Friday. It seems like the guy is TRYING at least. |
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Amsterdamn
Posts: 180
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, I'll read it.
it's necessary to make the "famous IC distinction" between "plot" and "narrative". For the purposes of discussing videogames, "plot" is the stuff that happens in cutscenes and the backstory. It's the setup for the action of the game. The action of the game is the narrative: what happens to your character and the world he is in as you play the game, as a result of either a)your actions or b)the procedural "rules" of the game world.
Hmm... I'm not entirely sure the distinction is that important, in these games... I mean, I wish it were, but...
What's the "narrative" of a "Silent Hill" game? Mostly opening doors, picking up weapons and killing monsters. It's all pretty generic stuff. I guess you could argue that "Silent Hill 4 The Room" also "forces" you to go into that hole and makes you (or rather "allows you to"? does that still count?) peep at your neighbour, but...?
the real beauty of the [Silent Hill 2] lies in how the actual elements of gameplay reflect the relatively simple plot themes: the game is about James dealing with the guilt of killing his wife. The enemies, environments, and puzzles all play figurative/metaphorical roles in this struggle. Though there's not much variation in how things play out, the fact that the gameplay challenges are not just pacing mechanisms but actual serious narrative themes lends an emotional element to the actual gameplay that 99% of other games lack
I'm afraid I'm not really convinced... I think you're making the game look a bit smarter than it really is, here. I could be wrong though.
For example, yes, I guess you could "make sense" out of the monster design, but are we really sure the guy who designed these creatures had all that in mind at the time? We know that was at least partly the case in the first game (the game pretty much tells you so), but here?
As for the holes... Well, that's nothing new since Lewis Carroll, is it?
The only "clever" details that I can think of right now would be the letter fading out of existence (and apparently having no weight in the first place), and the "hidden factors" that decide which ending you'll get...
it's worth pointing out that [Silent Hill 3] has a simplified version of 2's conflict: except in this case Heather in is in conflict with herself. The metaphorical layer of 2 is stripped off, and Heather is literally just fighting "silent hill" monsters because she is destined to give birth to their god; she is a daughter of the first game, and so her demons ARE that game.
OK, now, I really doubt they had that in mind... ^^;
The point of all this is: in all of the games, the backstory is really just that: a setup to put each character in a particular situation/atmosphere.
I think it's more important than that. Well, it is as far as I'm concerned, anyway.
Like you said, "Silent Hill" games are "experiences". I certainly don't play them for the gameplay itself (who does?). But experiences like that have to be immersive. And when the plot feels like it's been written by a bunch of people who never met each other, like it's never been proof-read... Well, that can't work.
Without a good plot, I'd just be left with a virtual ghost house. A well-designed one, maybe, but still...
"Silent Hill 3" felt quite a bit like a ghost house... But at least, it looked and played well enough for me to enjoy it despite its glowing-green-reagent-fuelled plot.
"Silent Hill 4 The Room" didn't even have that. The gameplay had regressed, for some reason. As for the plot... Well, you know how I feel about it. And on top of that, it was being spoon-fed to you in a way that was even more ludicrously videogame-y than in the first "Bio Hazard" game: "Don't bother trying to uncover the mystery yourself. We'll have some guy leave memos for you once in a while. It's simpler that way. Oh, and he'll also provide you with actual gameplay advices! How cool is that?" (that might be funny when Kojima does it, but since when do "Silent Hill" games work like that? I guess that's a memo I never got). Now, that's all but immersive. And no, first-person sequences won't make up for it.
The only important plot point in 2 is that James killed his wife, and is in denial; everything interesting and compelling stems from that fact.
Then again, that doesn't amount to much in the end, in my opinion... More important plot points than just that one would have been nice.
While "the revelation" saved James from being an entirely bland cardboard character, the poor guy needed a bit more than that to become a real boy. And then, there are the other characters, who only existed to fade in and out of James' life and thoughts for a few FMVs...
(I do like the game, but I also think it's not "all that"...)
In part 3, things are a little murkier, but that game's the weakest in the series, so I'm comfortable ignoring it. If anything, it would be a stronger game without the forced continuity.
I agree, and I think that's true for the sequel as well.
Woodard wrote:
The other way to go as an alternative is retaining the mystery. If you can explain everything away at the end, then to some degree you’ve fucked up. In a story that details something unknown (and isn’t sci-fi) you can’t make it completely known. Because it cheapens that feeling of “what the hell is going on?” when at the end, you can explain it all away. It’s not scary when you know what happened, that feeling of unease when presented with infinite possibilities, even those beyond literal description, is forever gone.
I agree for the most part, but I think the mystery can be maintained even if you can think of a possible explanation... as long as you don't know if you're right.
And I also think quite a few writers make advantage of that theory. What's the recipe to a good mystery? Write a regular story and add something that doesn't quite make sense in there, somewhere. Or better yet: drop the regular story altogether and be random. It's easy, and it even allows you to make all kinds of mistakes: they'll just add to the "mystery".
I don't mind not having "the" answer, but I don't appreciate feeling like the writer is simply pulling my leg, especially when he does a really bad job at it.
Apollyon wrote:
You're all talking about the plot not being coherent and being poorly written, and Gans (in the issue of Fangoria I mentioned) takes note of this. He states something along the lines of "when I looked at the mythology and the story they had created in the first game, as compared to the later ones, I realized that these guys had no idea WHERE they were going with the first game."
Er... Well, duh. Of course they wrote the "mythology" as they went along.
The thing is, I think they did a bad job at it. You can write as you go along and yet remain consistent. But naturally, it's a bit harder, so... Heh.
I really do have faith in Gans doing this right. Guess we'll find out Friday. It seems like the guy is TRYING at least.
Yeah, I think he is.
I really like that guy. Unfortunately, I have yet to really like one of his movies... And when I heard the "I have many names" line, I thought "crap... 'looks like that's not going to change anytime soon..."
'Hoping I'm wrong.
(that being said, I still expect it to be the best "video game movie" ever) |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Without a good plot, I'd just be left with a virtual ghost house. A well-designed one, maybe, but still...
Except the plot for Silent Hill is trite and stupid, while the plot for Silent Hill 2 is good, but nothing more. It's the execution that makes this series great, the art design and the music and the experience of creeping through the fog when your radio starts going off. In this sense, the plots are only important in the sense that they give context to all the creepy goings-on. Silent Hill 3 had a shitty context with good execution, and Silent Hill 4 has a good context with shitty execution. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
Except the plot for Silent Hill is trite and stupid, while the plot for Silent Hill 2 is good, but nothing more.
I think both plots are OK, but nothing more. I wouldn't call the plot of the first game "trite and stupid", anyway.
It's the execution that makes this series great, the art design and the music and the experience of creeping through the fog when your radio starts going off. In this sense, the plots are only important in the sense that they give context to all the creepy goings-on.
Like I said above, I think a bad plot spoils the whole thing. So it's still a pretty important factor, as far as I'm concerned. If I don't care about what's going on, if I don't care about the story or the characters, well-executed or not, the game becomes a mere ghost house.
Silent Hill 3 had a shitty context with good execution, and Silent Hill 4 has a good context with shitty execution.
I'd say "Silent Hill 4 The Room" had an interesting premise... and that's about it. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
If I don't care about what's going on, if I don't care about the story or the characters, well-executed or not, the game becomes a mere ghost house.
I sure as hell didn't care about anyone in the first game. They were all barely developed and Harry bordered on obnoxious. The town was the main character, and this carried through into part 2 in a slightly different way. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
I sure as hell didn't care about anyone in the first game.
Oh, I never really cared about a "Silent Hill" character. And I'm talking about the whole series, here. They're too "fake". US movie characters thought up by Japanese people, and it shows.
But at the very least, Harry's situation was pretty involving, I'd say. When he suddenly hears his daughter calling for help, it's more than a cheap scare. |
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Hot Stott Bot
Posts: 2097
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
sethsez wrote:
I sure as hell didn't care about anyone in the first game.
Oh, I never really cared about a "Silent Hill" character. And I'm talking about the whole series, here. They're too "fake". US movie characters thought up by Japanese people, and it shows.
Isn't that kind of the idea?
Akira Yamaoka gave a talk at GDC '05 in which he said that the Silent Hill series was basically like a Japanese Horror mascarading as an American Horror. They seem like US characters on the surface, but as you go along you're supposed to be thrown off by the fact that they're actually distinctively Japanese... or something like that. I mean, it kind of makes sense. Actually, I'm not entirely sure I remember the talk very well... still.
I suppose the idea was that American Horror is mainly about "gross stuff" and "scary stuff" and that's what Silent Hill seems like going in. Whereas Japanese Horror is mainly about "bad feelings" and "guilt" and stuff like that, and that kind of sneaks up on you because you were expecting just "scary stuff". |
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Mister Toups
Posts: 4943
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Hmm... I'm not entirely sure the distinction is that important, in these games... I mean, I wish it were, but...
What's the "narrative" of a "Silent Hill" game? Mostly opening doors, picking up weapons and killing monsters. It's all pretty generic stuff. I guess you could argue that "Silent Hill 4 The Room" also "forces" you to go into that hole and makes you (or rather "allows you to"? does that still count?) peep at your neighbour, but...?
Well, it's less the fact that you're fighting the monsters and more the imagery that the monsters evoke. In other words, there is significance that James spend his time in the hospital beating sexualized nurse zombies to death with a lead pipe. This has been gone over before: the monsters in silent hill 2 are all in one way or another images of a sexuality and illness/disfigurement.
In Silent Hill 4, the narrative also includes the random hauntings of your apartment and the voyeuristic behaviours that the player chooses to enact. It's possible to go through the entire game without spying on your neighbor, yet you choose to anyway. These things all contribute to the atmosphere of the game.
Oliver Hague wrote:
the real beauty of the [Silent Hill 2] lies in how the actual elements of gameplay reflect the relatively simple plot themes: the game is about James dealing with the guilt of killing his wife. The enemies, environments, and puzzles all play figurative/metaphorical roles in this struggle. Though there's not much variation in how things play out, the fact that the gameplay challenges are not just pacing mechanisms but actual serious narrative themes lends an emotional element to the actual gameplay that 99% of other games lack
I'm afraid I'm not really convinced... I think you're making the game look a bit smarter than it really is, here. I could be wrong though.
For example, yes, I guess you could "make sense" out of the monster design, but are we really sure the guy who designed these creatures had all that in mind at the time? We know that was at least partly the case in the first game (the game pretty much tells you so), but here?
As for the holes... Well, that's nothing new since Lewis Carroll, is it?
It's certainly true of Silent Hill 2. All it takes is a little bit of perceptiveness and it really becomes blatantly obvious. I'm almost confident that I've read interviews with the designers of that game that the creature designs were meant to reflect James' guilt.
And even if they weren't consciously intending for that effect, it's still undeniably there in the game. You give game designers too much credit; sometimes the best parts of a game happen by accident (though I doubt that's the case here).
Oliver Hague wrote:
it's worth pointing out that [Silent Hill 3] has a simplified version of 2's conflict: except in this case Heather in is in conflict with herself. The metaphorical layer of 2 is stripped off, and Heather is literally just fighting "silent hill" monsters because she is destined to give birth to their god; she is a daughter of the first game, and so her demons ARE that game.
OK, now, I really doubt they had that in mind... ^^;
Again, what they had in mind doesn't really matter in the end. All I know is the game I played. I have better things to do with my time than to try and read Yamaoka's mind.
Oliver Hague wrote:
The point of all this is: in all of the games, the backstory is really just that: a setup to put each character in a particular situation/atmosphere.
I think it's more important than that. Well, it is as far as I'm concerned, anyway.
Like you said, "Silent Hill" games are "experiences". I certainly don't play them for the gameplay itself (who does?). But experiences like that have to be immersive. And when the plot feels like it's been written by a bunch of people who never met each other, like it's never been proof-read... Well, that can't work.
Without a good plot, I'd just be left with a virtual ghost house. A well-designed one, maybe, but still...
"Silent Hill 3" felt quite a bit like a ghost house... But at least, it looked and played well enough for me to enjoy it despite its glowing-green-reagent-fuelled plot.
"Silent Hill 4 The Room" didn't even have that. The gameplay had regressed, for some reason. As for the plot... Well, you know how I feel about it. And on top of that, it was being spoon-fed to you in a way that was even more ludicrously videogame-y than in the first "Bio Hazard" game: "Don't bother trying to uncover the mystery yourself. We'll have some guy leave memos for you once in a while. It's simpler that way. Oh, and he'll also provide you with actual gameplay advices! How cool is that?" (that might be funny when Kojima does it, but since when do "Silent Hill" games work like that? I guess that's a memo I never got). Now, that's all but immersive. And no, first-person sequences won't make up for it.
If this is how you feel about games, why do you like the silent hill series at all? None of the games have anything resembling a coherent plot. That you have to resort to reading lengthy plot guides to make sense out of anything is evidence enough of this.
You must be no fun to watch movies with. Have you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?
Oliver Hague wrote:
The only important plot point in 2 is that James killed his wife, and is in denial; everything interesting and compelling stems from that fact.
Then again, that doesn't amount to much in the end, in my opinion... More important plot points than just that one would have been nice.
While "the revelation" saved James from being an entirely bland cardboard character, the poor guy needed a bit more than that to become a real boy. And then, there are the other characters, who only existed to fade in and out of James' life and thoughts for a few FMVs...
(I do like the game, but I also think it's not "all that"...)
Well no one's saying it's perfect. We like Silent Hill 2 because it does something progressive with the medium in a relatively sophisticated and competent way. There are flaws, but, for me, anyway, they are forgivable because what the game does right is so compelling. So what if the characters aren't fleshed out more than they are? You can fill that in with your imagination. There is enough there to make the game a compelling piece of entertainment. I think you're just being picky demanding more.
I mean, really, most people aren't thinking about the inner mechanics of the cult and the personalities behind it when they are playing the games. For me and for nearly everyone I've talked to about the game, things like that are about the furthest things from their minds during gameplay.
In conclusion, you're a weirdo, but then aren't we all.
EDIT: toups post |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hot Stott Bot wrote:
Isn't that kind of the idea?
I... kinda doubt it?
Akira Yamaoka gave a talk at GDC '05 in which he said that the Silent Hill series was basically like a Japanese Horror mascarading as an American Horror. They seem like US characters on the surface, but as you go along you're supposed to be thrown off by the fact that they're actually distinctively Japanese... or something like that.
I suppose the idea was that American Horror is mainly about "gross stuff" and "scary stuff" and that's what Silent Hill seems like going in. Whereas Japanese Horror is mainly about "bad feelings" and "guilt" and stuff like that, and that kind of sneaks up on you because you were expecting just "scary stuff".
About the "horror" itself actually being Japanese... Well, I guess it is, yes. At least sometimes, and in "Silent Hill 2" in particular (there's more and more gore in the recent games though).
... But the characters?
And when I said that I thought they felt like US movie characters thought up by Japanese people, I didn't mean that they felt Japanese. Just that they're like... well, copies of copies of copies of actual human beings. Characters that went through so many filters that they end up feeling way too "fake" (the awkward English script and dub don't help).
Mister Toups wrote:
the monsters in silent hill 2 are all in one way or another images of a sexuality and illness/disfigurement.
I can see how illness fits the plot... But of course the monsters are going to be images of illness/disfigurement. Isn't that the case for all human-based monsters in general, even in other games?
As for sexuality... What does it have to do with the plot?
the narrative also includes the random hauntings of your apartment
Yeah, but they could just as well not exist... They're not essential to the story, and they don't really add to it, do they?
To me, the hauntings feel more like a new gameplay feature and a way to give more scares, that's about all.
and the voyeuristic behaviours that the player chooses to enact. It's possible to go through the entire game without spying on your neighbor, yet you choose to anyway.
Well, just in case something happens. You're supposed to be trapped and desperate, after all, so the "voyeuristic" aspect really isn't as strong as it could be.
I seem to remember that when they first announced the game, Yamaoka (I believe?) explained that the main character was faced with a choice: either remain trapped in his room and rot here, or go into the hole and face danger and the unknown. At first, I thought "hey, nice dilemma..." But then I realized that the player wouldn't see things that way at all. He bought the damn game. So of course he'll go into the hole. Duh.
In both cases, I can see how the game wants to be "disturbing"... but it's not, in my opinion.
You give game designers too much credit; sometimes the best parts of a game happen by accident
Oh, I'm not saying otherwise.
Again, what they had in mind doesn't really matter in the end. All I know is the game I played. I have better things to do with my time than to try and read Yamaoka's mind.
Yeah, but you do think that there's something there, whereas I'm not convinced. So wondering whether or not the creators actually put something in there may not matter to you, but it does to me.
If this is how you feel about games, why do you like the silent hill series at all?
Well, as far as "horror" goes, I thought it was more interesting, insidious and effective than "Bio Hazard".
None of the games have anything resembling a coherent plot.
I'd say the plots of the two first games "work", at least.
The plot of the third one... Well, it kinda does. With some work. And if you're a bit drunk and forgiving.
The plot of the fourth one... Ugh.
You must be no fun to watch movies with. Have you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?
Naturally. But suspension of disbelief shouldn't be the solution to everything. Especially not when the story is supposed to be a "serious" one.
We like Silent Hill 2 because it does something progressive with the medium in a relatively sophisticated and competent way. There are flaws, but, for me, anyway, they are forgivable because what the game does right is so compelling.
Agreed, for the most part.
So what if the characters aren't fleshed out more than they are? You can fill that in with your imagination.
Well, I can't do that when what I simply don't believe in what I'm seeing. The characters and their lines feel so "fake", in my opinion, that it's not just a matter of "filling in the blanks". So I end up trying to look past the characters altogether, which is a damn shame.
There is enough there to make the game a compelling piece of entertainment. I think you're just being picky demanding more.
A few years ago, that would have been picky, yeah, I guess... But now, I'm expecting more. And from my point of view, Konami's recent efforts were steps backwards ("Siren", on the other hand, was pretty clever in many ways).
I mean, really, most people aren't thinking about the inner mechanics of the cult and the personalities behind it when they are playing the games. For me and for nearly everyone I've talked to about the game, things like that are about the furthest things from their minds during gameplay.
Still, if Konami can't handle their "mythology"/continuity, they would be better off dropping it altogether (if only for weirdos like me). It's not like they had to involve the Cult or Walter Sullivan (instead of a new serial killer) in the last game. Especially if most people don't even care about all that in the first place.
(sorry about the weird English, by the way) |
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extralife
Posts: 3316
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| So it seems the movie wasn't screened for critics. Translation? It is almost guaranteed to suck. |
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Mister Toups
Posts: 4943
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| These just all seem like odd complaints to me. For my part, plot inconsistancies don't really affect my experience with the game; things like atmosphere and narrative innovation do. If you're really losing sleep over things like backstory continuity maybe you'd be better off reading comic books than playing video games? Plot will never be the focus of video games because videogames are interactive: the focus is on player action at the expense of everything else, even in the case of story-driven single player adventure games. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Mister Toups wrote:
If you're really losing sleep over things like backstory continuity maybe you'd be better off reading comic books
... You're kidding, right?
Plot will never be the focus of video games because videogames are interactive
And yet, some of them have coherent plots. |
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Mister Toups
Posts: 4943
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, some of them do. But some of my favorite ones don't.
I mean, hell, have you played ANY square enix game, EVER? Any of the Metal Gear games? Half Life 2? |
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internisus
Posts: 961
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Andrew, I will not idly sit by and allow you to intimate that the plots of Metal Gear games are incoherent.
This injustice will not stand. Raise your weapon; fight me! |
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winkerwanker
Posts: 2414
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| THEY'VE BEEN ALL DEAD FOR A 100 YEAR |
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dhex
Posts: 2963
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: |
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d0000000d
hl2 is totally coherent! no, really!
(kinda?) |
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winkerwanker
Posts: 2414
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote:
d0000000d
hl2 is totally coherent! no, really!
(kinda?)
as coherent as it's supposed to be |
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Moogs
Posts: 928
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
the monsters in silent hill 2 are all in one way or another images of a sexuality and illness/disfigurement.
I can see how illness fits the plot... But of course the monsters are going to be images of illness/disfigurement. Isn't that the case for all human-based monsters in general, even in other games?
As for sexuality... What does it have to do with the plot?
You think James and Mary were still getting it on regularly while she was suffering from her illness? |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Moogs wrote:
You think James and Mary were still getting it on regularly while she was suffering from her illness?
If you go there, Harry was a widower. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
the monsters in silent hill 2 are all in one way or another images of a sexuality and illness/disfigurement.
I can see how illness fits the plot... But of course the monsters are going to be images of illness/disfigurement. Isn't that the case for all human-based monsters in general, even in other games?
As for sexuality... What does it have to do with the plot?
Wow, you... kind of missed the entire point of that game, didn't you?
Pyramid Head wasn't a giant walking phallic symbols that violently rapes everything for nothing, you know. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
Wow, you... kind of missed the entire point of that game, didn't you?
Feel free to enlighten me. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Why do you think the main villain of the game was a giant walking dick with a big sword that had a penchant for rape?
And why do you think Maria was so seductive? |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
Why do you think the main villain of the game was a giant walking dick with a big sword that had a penchant for rape?
Because the game was trying to be "shocking"?
Something else?
And why do you think Maria was so seductive?
Why was Cynthia so seductive? |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Mister Toups wrote:
I mean, hell, have you played ANY square enix game, EVER? Any of the Metal Gear games? Half Life 2?
The way I see it:
A game that you play for the gameplay doesn't need a great plot.
A game that you play for "the experience", or that pretends to be "art" (and Konami certainly played that card a lot ever since the announcement of "Silent Hill 2"), better have a decent plot. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
sethsez wrote:
Why do you think the main villain of the game was a giant walking dick with a big sword that had a penchant for rape?
Because the game was trying to be "shocking"?
Something else?
And why do you think Maria was so seductive?
Why was Cynthia so seductive?
Hahahahahahahaha
So we've got a plot about a guy who gets "frustrated" with his wife's illness and kills her. He's then seduced by someone who looks exactly like her, and is hunted by a large, violent representation of male sexuality at its most basic. The latter kills the former multiple times.
But it's just a coincidence and doesn't matter.
...right. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
So we've got a plot about a guy who gets "frustrated" with his wife's illness and kills her. He's then seduced by someone who looks exactly like her, and is hunted by a large, violent representation of male sexuality at its most basic. The latter kills the former multiple times.
Yeah, to remind James of the fact he killed his wife, according to the scenario writer.
So much for him being deep sexual symbolism. |
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the vinculum gate
Posts: 2868
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| WHOOPS I GUESS I JUST STUMBLED INTO THE WRONG THREAD SAVES ME FROM PLAYING SILENT HILL 2 RIGHT GUYS |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Are you capable of grasping symbolism or is nothing real until it's explicitly stated?
I'm well aware of why Pyramid Head is killing Maria over and over. Doesn't it strike you as just a tiny bit odd that they're both very sexualized? Might that have something to do with the reason James killed Mary in the first place? |
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Moogs
Posts: 928
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Moogs wrote:
You think James and Mary were still getting it on regularly while she was suffering from her illness?
If you go there, Harry was a widower.
What's that got to do with Silent Hill 2? |
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Cycle
Posts: 1574
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
I mean, hell, have you played ANY square enix game, EVER? Any of the Metal Gear games? Half Life 2?
The way I see it:
A game that you play for the gameplay doesn't need a great plot.
A game that you play for "the experience", or that pretends to be "art" (and Konami certainly played that card a lot ever since the announcement of "Silent Hill 2"), better have a decent plot.
I completely disagree with the second statement. A game doesn't need a strong plot to be an amazing experience or "art". Just look at Rez or SotC. In fact, I think games are better experiences when the plot is kept minimal. |
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Mister Toups
Posts: 4943
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
I mean, hell, have you played ANY square enix game, EVER? Any of the Metal Gear games? Half Life 2?
The way I see it:
A game that you play for the gameplay doesn't need a great plot.
A game that you play for "the experience", or that pretends to be "art" (and Konami certainly played that card a lot ever since the announcement of "Silent Hill 2"), better have a decent plot.
So you're telling me you play final fantasy for the gameplay? |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
Are you capable of grasping symbolism or is nothing real until it's explicitly stated?
Gee, thanks. I love you too.
Thing is, you can come up with sexual interpretations to pretty much anything if you want to. And here, we're talking about a series of games that just loves grotesque creature design. That makes it that much easier.
But I don't think sex has much to do with the plot. Illness, maybe. Guilt, definitely. But sex? It might be present in the creature design and such, but when it is, does it have any deep meaning pertaining to the plot? I don't think so, for one.
I'm well aware of why Pyramid Head is killing Maria over and over. Doesn't it strike you as just a tiny bit odd that they're both very sexualized?
Cynthia too was sexualized. I'd say they both are simplistic "prostitute" stereotypes, and that's pretty much it. "Can I really trust a girl that dresses like that and wears that much make-up? For sure, she can't be the gentle and safe Mary I know!"
As for "Pyramid Head", he first appears in a scene where it looks like he's "raping" some creatures. That's pretty much it. And yes, I really think that scene was put in there for sheer shock value. Sorry.
The "Silent Hill" series isn't above gratuitous scenes. "Eww! Now, I have to put my hand in the toilet to retrieve some object! That's either supposed to be disgusting or to symbolize the murky nature of the dark secret that lies deep within my subconscious! 'Must be the latter!"
Might that have something to do with the reason James killed Mary in the first place?
Sex? I don't think so.
Really, from what I can tell based on the game and the interviews of the staff I've read, I'd say the game isn't nearly as clever as you make it out to be. You think I "missed the whole point", but I think you're overanalyzing, on the contrary. Sorry.
Moogs wrote:
What's that got to do with Silent Hill 2?
Well, if Konami were to put a scene where Pyramid Head "rapes" something in "Silent Hill", people would probably go "of course! that's because Harry is a widower! so he's sexually frustrated!"
In "Silent Hill 3", it'd probably be "of course! Heather is a girl, so the other world and its creatures are rapists!"
In "Silent Hill 4", it'd probably be "of course! Henry is trapped in his room and peeping at his neighbour in what might be considered a deviant and voyeuristic behavior! so he's sexually frustrated!"
Cycle wrote:
I completely disagree with the second statement. A game doesn't need a strong plot
(I just said "decent")
to be an amazing experience or "art". Just look at Rez or SotC.
Yeah, I guess that was a bit too vague... I was thinking of games with an actual story, characters, etc. I wouldn't count "Rez" as one of them.
But I do think the plot of SotC (you and your damn acronyms! *shakes fist*) is decent enough.
In fact, I think games are better experiences when the plot is kept minimal.
When I say a "decent plot", I don't necessarily mean an elaborate one. A minimal plot can still be decent.
Mister Toups wrote:
So you're telling me you play final fantasy for the gameplay?
So you're telling me you play it for the story?
To answer your question, I play it for a bit of both, I guess. I think the stories are good enough. Certainly not great, but not too terrible either.
I think they're nice games. But I certainly wouldn't call them "art" or scan them for some hidden subtext. And I believe that's not how Square Enix is trying to sell them either, right? |
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Mister Toups
Posts: 4943
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
Mister Toups wrote:
So you're telling me you play final fantasy for the gameplay?
So you're telling me you play it for the story?
To answer your question, I play it for a bit of both, I guess. I think the stories are good enough. Certainly not great, but not too terrible either.
I think they're nice games. But I certainly wouldn't call them "art" or scan them for some hidden subtext. And I believe that's not how Square Enix is trying to sell them either, right?
Man, I don't play that shit at all.
And no one is calling Silent Hill "art" either. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Mister Toups wrote:
no one is calling Silent Hill "art" either.
Like I said above, Konami sure plays that card a lot, especially since "Silent Hill 2". |
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Hot Stott Bot
Posts: 2097
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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What the fuck does the fucking "games as art" discussion have fucking anything to do with this?
Let's get back to the sex in Silent Hill 2...
I like to think that Pyramid Head rapes things to remind James of having sex with Maria before reminding him that he killed her, or because maybe James raped Mary and he's reminding him of that.
I'm more about the latter theory, personally.
Of course, the other reason Pyramid Head would be shaped like a dick and rapes things, is because it's shocking. Plus, the fact that it is shocking, disgusting, scary, gross, creepy, etc. also gives you (as the player) a little taste of James's experience. Now that's kind of what Toups is talking about, isn't it?
Multiple purposes is usually an indication of a good piece of media! |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hot Stott Bot wrote:
Multiple purposes is usually an indication of a good piece of media!
no shut up you're overanalyzing totally unimportant things that despite all being thematically linked and central to the plot are obviously just coincidences
now let's get back to bitching about a couple lines in a newspaper in SH2 because THAT is important |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hot Stott Bot wrote:
Multiple purposes is usually an indication of a good piece of media!
Yeah, if they're multiple purposes, and not just multiple possible interpretations. Was it really done on purpose?
sethsez wrote:
despite all being thematically linked and central to the plot
Central to the plot? Prove it. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Now you want me to prove Pyramid Head and Maria are central to the plot of Silent Hill 2?
You are no longer making any sense. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
Now you want me to prove Pyramid Head and Maria are central to the plot of Silent Hill 2?
*sigh*
No, I want you to prove that sex is central to the plot. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic, rapes things twice in the game, and Maria... well, she's obvious.
One of them being sexual would be shock value. Both of them being sexual but minor characters might be shock value. And I'll go one further... both of them being sexual, and being major characters, but having no interaction with each other might just be a coincidence.
But they are both sexual, both major characters, and their interaction with each other is a very important part of the plot. They are both intimately related to James' guilt, and they both exist for the sole purpose of forcing him to remember his crime.
For two characters that already exist for the purpose of symbolism, it would be odd (or extremely sloppy) for them to share the distinct trait of overt, aggressive sexuality for no particular reason. You'd think if the goal was mere shock value it would be put on a lesser villain, and certainly wouldn't be shared by two intimately connected characters whose purpose is to reveal the truth to James. If it is a coincidence, then it's a damn sloppy and short-sighted one. |
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Olivier Hague
Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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sethsez wrote:
Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic
?
The big sword? Does that make Cloud pretty damn phallic?
rapes things twice in the game
There was another scene like that? I played the game a while ago, so I don't remember...
and Maria... well, she's obvious.
Less so than Cynthia, for example.
You think there's obviously something there, but I really don't. Sorry. |
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sethsez
Posts: 1977
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
sethsez wrote:
Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic
?
The big sword? Does that make Cloud pretty damn phallic?
And the big honkin' red helmet.
rapes things twice in the game
There was another scene like that? I played the game a while ago, so I don't remember...
I played it about a month ago. You... might want to go back, because you're clearly forgetting a bunch of things. He's raping something when you meet him again for the first "boss fight" (ie, run away for a while).
and Maria... well, she's obvious.
Less so than Cynthia, for example.
What? No way. You're reeeeeeeally forgetting what kind of character Maria is. I mean, the entire point of her character is that she's like Mary, but amazingly seductive. She is in no way less sexual than Cynthia. |
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Mister Toups
Posts: 4943
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier Hague wrote:
sethsez wrote:
Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic
?
The big sword? Does that make Cloud pretty damn phallic?
Shit dude have you even SEEN a penis?
Also trying to argue with sethsez about whether something's phallic or not is probably going to be a losing battle.
don't hate me I'm not homophobic okaysorry |
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buckfutter
Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody arguing that the monster symbolism, if nothing else, in SH2 wasn't intentional is reaching. Which is sort of ironic, as when it comes to the game art debate it's usually the other side doing most of the reaching.
Take the lying figure - a straight-jacketed creature, often lying on the ground. Reminiscent of the "legs" motif found in other creatures in the game. Note that it is in a constant state of suffocation. Sound familiar?
The scene with the sexually abused girl killing her father figure* takes place in a room where all the walls are made up of fleshy, pumping pistons, which have no apparent architectural purpose. Pure coincidence, obviously.
Nurses are obvious. Reflection of the hospital environment, but extended from the SH1 motif of Alessa's fears (dogs, bugs, the hospital staff, teasing children... come to think of it, that should be | | |