IC Forum Archive

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

Multiple purposes is usually an indication of a good piece of media!

Yeah, if they're multiple purposes, and not just multiple possible interpretations. Was it really done on purpose?

sethsez wrote:

despite all being thematically linked and central to the plot

Central to the plot? Prove it.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Now you want me to prove Pyramid Head and Maria are central to the plot of Silent Hill 2?

You are no longer making any sense.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

Now you want me to prove Pyramid Head and Maria are central to the plot of Silent Hill 2?

*sigh*
No, I want you to prove that sex is central to the plot.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic, rapes things twice in the game, and Maria... well, she's obvious.

One of them being sexual would be shock value. Both of them being sexual but minor characters might be shock value. And I'll go one further... both of them being sexual, and being major characters, but having no interaction with each other might just be a coincidence.

But they are both sexual, both major characters, and their interaction with each other is a very important part of the plot. They are both intimately related to James' guilt, and they both exist for the sole purpose of forcing him to remember his crime.

For two characters that already exist for the purpose of symbolism, it would be odd (or extremely sloppy) for them to share the distinct trait of overt, aggressive sexuality for no particular reason. You'd think if the goal was mere shock value it would be put on a lesser villain, and certainly wouldn't be shared by two intimately connected characters whose purpose is to reveal the truth to James. If it is a coincidence, then it's a damn sloppy and short-sighted one.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic

?
The big sword? Does that make Cloud pretty damn phallic?

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

sethsez wrote:

Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic

?
The big sword? Does that make Cloud pretty damn phallic?

And the big honkin' red helmet.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Olivier Hague wrote:

sethsez wrote:

Pyramid Head and Maria are both sexual. Pyramid Head, in addition to being pretty damn phallic

?
The big sword? Does that make Cloud pretty damn phallic?

Shit dude have you even SEEN a penis?

Also trying to argue with sethsez about whether something's phallic or not is probably going to be a losing battle.
don't hate me I'm not homophobic okaysorry

buckfutter · Posts: 4

Anybody arguing that the monster symbolism, if nothing else, in SH2 wasn't intentional is reaching. Which is sort of ironic, as when it comes to the game art debate it's usually the other side doing most of the reaching.

Take the lying figure - a straight-jacketed creature, often lying on the ground. Reminiscent of the "legs" motif found in other creatures in the game. Note that it is in a constant state of suffocation. Sound familiar?

The scene with the sexually abused girl killing her father figure* takes place in a room where all the walls are made up of fleshy, pumping pistons, which have no apparent architectural purpose. Pure coincidence, obviously.

Nurses are obvious. Reflection of the hospital environment, but extended from the SH1 motif of Alessa's fears (dogs, bugs, the hospital staff, teasing children... come to think of it, that should be enough proof right there. When you reach Alessa's room in SH1, you'll note that all the creatures are monstrous exaggerations of strange things in her room. Note the butterfly display on the wall.) to be grossly sexualized, with melted faces and thus no personal distinction.

Mannequins made entirely of legs. The iconography of mannequins to the female figure is nothing I should have to point out.

Interesting to note that originally pyramid head wore no helmet; he had a strip of skin pulled over his face to suffocate him, like the lying figures. This was changed to something more phallic, but according to the Making Of documentary and the Lost Memories book, the idea of him constantly being in pain, distorted, and under a great burden was a reflection of James' guilt and not just his wing wang. Note that the Pyramid Head(s) die of their own accord (impaling themselves on their own spears...) when James has the "I was weak..." epiphany.

And yeah, Maria's existence in the plot should really make it clear, but I guess a sexualized, repeatedly killed version of a wife James grew physically disgusted with to the point of murder is just the standard sexy female sidekick thing that videogames have been running with for so long.

* Which James observed as a sort of bed/door shaped creature; the guy who wrote the Gamefaqs plot guides and the official game guide tells me that outside of the obvious hospital bed iconography that the devs told him that this was a sort of nod to SH inspiring a fear of going through doors into uncharted territory. Strange but true.

kyouki · Posts: 5

The book, Lost Memories~Silent Hill Chronicles~, goes into some detail about the things the creatures and characters represent in SH2.

All that is mentioned about Pyramid Head (called "Red Pyramid Thing" in the book) is that it takes the form of an executioner but was formed based upon James' sense of self-guilt. When describing the mannequin enemy, it is mentioned that it is the embodiment of the urges contrary to his character that James feels. In the understatement of the year it goes on to note that "for that reason, it is ill-treated by Pyramid Head."

Interestingly, in the game you see a quick cutaway shot of a weird fleshy mouth-like image. From what I remember this fleshy thing is seen when Laura traps Harry in the room with the hanging monsters. The book mentions this of the monsters (called "Flesh Lip"):

"Has the meaning of 'carnal lips' The bed and the mouth in the abdomen symbolize Mary."

So not a whole lot to go on there. I think there is some very violent sexual imagery at least in the game, which is why it can be so uncomfortable to watch. The ways many of the creatures are animated (the gyrations of the Flesh Lip creature and from what I remember the "Daddy" monster, the "ill-treatment" Pyramid Head administers to the mannequins, and in general the glistening slippery look everything has) suggest it... and although there is the possibility that Konami just did this to throw sexual stuff in to be shocking, I would say based on the information in this book that there is at least an underlying theme present in the story that is sexual. Hey, it's possible Konami just threw the stuff in there because the mixture of horror and sex is sort of icky.

Adilegian · Posts: 124

internisus wrote:

What are you talking about? I was really into SH4's elaboration on SH2's Walter Sullivan character, and I didn't notice any inconsistencies. Would you be more specific?

I agree with internisus, here, as well as some of the other posters in the thread. I think that it’s reductive to examine Silent Hill in terms of a series of events.

Now, please don’t get me wrong: I don’t consider myself a postmodernist, and I very much value coherency and verisimilitude. Yet, I don’t think it’s necessarily a postmodern attitude to recognize that symbolism, abstraction, and thematic repetition characterize certain works rather than plot and events. You can take that approach to poetry all through history. Even something like Spenser’s The Faerie Queene only allows for circumstances to occur sequentially because they follow the blueprint prescribed by his patterns.

Anyway, my point isn’t to turn discussion toward postmodernism. Many disagree with me, and many disagree very well. I only mean that Silent Hill takes itself seriously with regard to narrative tools that usually occur in poems: symbols, abstractions, and thematic repetition. Naturally, it’s going to backtrack the specific facts of its long-spanning story when the interests of those constant elements are served.

Olivier Hague wrote:

How about we stop "stretching the plot" and simply have the series being some kind of an "anthology of horror/mystery stories"? How about we go back to the idea behind "Silent Hill 2": keep the mystical/devilish town, and come up with entirely original and stand-alone stories? Wouldn't that be better?

I like the cultish approach, and it seems like a good way to continue the momentum of the stories forward. All of the Silent Hill games have one thematic kernel at heart: revelation. The more interesting revelations are personal rather than cosmic, I think, but the background of a religious cult sets the overall tone necessary for those stories of individual revelations to unfold.

Olivier Hague wrote:

Did you expect "Silent Hill" to make sense? It's horror! It's not realistic! So it doesn't have to make sense! Does it?!

All of the games carry their own internal, narrative logic. This logic is usually discernable through the symbols, environments, and atmospheres of the landscape. The instances you described previously don’t make narrative sense if you consider them as occurrences within a normal, forward progression of space and time. However, the game’s story provides a number of clues to suggest that the linearity of the story (Henry goes from apartment to first world to apartment to second world, etcetera) does not reflect a linear progression of events in the narrative world.

Walter’s “womb” beneath Apt. 302 has an armillary sphere at its center. This suggests a reference to Contact by Carl Sagan, in which a machine that could bend time “would look from the outside like one of those armillary spheres of the Renaissance astronomers.” Joseph Schreibner writes explicitly that Otherworld-Time proceeds adjunct to Realworld-Time. And time travel is the only explanation why Henry could meet Jasper in the Forest World moments after Jasper had met Joseph Schreibner... who Henry knows has been dead for years.

Olivier Hague wrote:

I really don't mind tongue-in-cheek references to previous games, but Walter was central to the plot...

A counter-argument might suggest that Walter was present in Silent Hill 2 only to the extent required by James’s psyche. James’s psyche supplies the motion of the game, and the visual memories associated with the land supply the forms. The only part of Walter Sullivan’s story from Silent Hill 4 preserved in Silent Hill 2 was also the only reason he was created in the first place: to associate James as a murderer. As long as Sullivan could still fulfill that function as a prop in Silent Hill 2, they could do whatever they wanted with his character.

Olivier Hague wrote:

They keep adding stuff to their "mythology", and the whole thing has turned into an ugly patchwork. It's lousy writing, really.

I don’t think that the cult needs to be coherent to be believable. If anything, the cult becomes more believable as a fractured organization. As the audience (and as the characters, by our association through them) we have to relate to the cult as outsiders. As an insider of Christianity, another religion—a cult writ large—I know that we can still identify an individual as “Christian” even when he disagrees on large issues, such as the sanctification of the Virgin. Therefore, I don’t see a problem associating a collection of contradictory myths under the umbrella of “The Silent Hill Cult’s Mythology,” because that’s the way all religions operate.

Off of defense of the series—I thought the movie was great.

extralife · Posts: 3316

Oliver is funny. I keep forgetting that there are Silent Hill fans like him out there.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

We will be withholding discussion of the film until a few hours from now, when I actually see it.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Adilegian wrote:

Olivier Hague wrote:

I really don't mind tongue-in-cheek references to previous games, but Walter was central to the plot...

A counter-argument might suggest that Walter was present in Silent Hill 2 only to the extent required by James’s psyche. James’s psyche supplies the motion of the game, and the visual memories associated with the land supply the forms. The only part of Walter Sullivan’s story from Silent Hill 4 preserved in Silent Hill 2 was also the only reason he was created in the first place: to associate James as a murderer. As long as Sullivan could still fulfill that function as a prop in Silent Hill 2, they could do whatever they wanted with his character.

Yes, there is also this dimension of things as well. Silent Hill is always portrayed as a being malleable to whoever is visiting at the time. Note also that all of the characters in silent hill 2 are experiencing their own "versions" of the town -- Angela, for instance, sees everything on fire. Even the "real" Silent Hill in the first game isn't actually real, but is intead the reality created by Dahlia to compete with Alessa's reality. This element makes details about the town's history difficult to identify objectively, and very much leaves each game open to interpretation. If anything, Silent Hill 4 has the benefit of being the only game to take place outside of the town; it could be argued that that game's information is the only "reliable" data we really have about the cult... and even then, you're relying on memos which are mystically slipped under Henry's door by a long-dead journalist who was probably insane.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

And the big honkin' red helmet.

You have a lot of imagination.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Mister Toups wrote:

Silent Hill is always portrayed as a being malleable to whoever is visiting at the time.

During the events of the games, yeah. But it also exists as a real town.

Toups the Elder · Posts: 508

In before the penis.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU

(nsfw)

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Mister Toups wrote:

DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU

... And I'm suposed to be convinced? You're kidding me, right?

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

...he doesn't have much of a sense of humor, either.

I hope you have a healthy reserve of interestng and obscure knowledge to make up for being an idiot, otherwise we won't have much use for you here.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Mister Toups wrote:

...he doesn't have much of a sense of humor, either.

I don't know, when did the joke start? When you guys first talked about Pyramid Head being "pretty damn phallic"? That was a long joke.

notext · Posts: 13

Olivier Hague wrote:

Or the entire point of her character is that she looks like Mary but isn't like her. I don't think her being seductive is "the entire point".

It's the entire point of difference. I'm not entirely sure what other point you think there is.

I don't really get the pyramid = penis thing either, but then I don't think PH really needs it to come across as a symbol of masculine sexual violence. And I do think the monsters are quite obviously and deliberately sexual. You'd have to think the game designers were complete fucking idiots to believe otherwise. Which, I don't know, perhaps you do.

It's not even as if people are reaching here. Silent Hill 3 has its fair share of obvious phallic symbols running about the place, but nobody here is attaching the same kind of significance to them, because Silent Hill 2 is so much more consistent in their use.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Olivier Hague wrote:

Yay, more Insert Credit touch! I love you guys. *weeps single tear*

http://forums.insertcredit.com/viewtopic.php?t=282

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

sup guys what is going on in this thread?

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

notext wrote:

It's the entire point of difference. I'm not entirely sure what other point you think there is.

Sure, these characters aren't exactly that deep anyway.
It's just that I think that how exactly she's different isn't that important to the plot. She is radically different. That's what really matters, plot-wise, in my opinion.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Mister Toups wrote:

http://forums.insertcredit.com/viewtopic.php?t=282

And you stopped following those... when?

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

Olivier, here's a hint: Toups is messing with you by this point and rather enjoying it. Hell, I kind of am too and I'm not even participating. I've just been following this thread for the past few days.

I love seeing new forum members come into contact with some of the personalities around here. Reminds me of a few weeks ago when Dicephowhatever was raging against everyone because Castlevania is like still so totally awesome after all these years or whatever and nobody was really agreeing with him. Sort of the same principles with how you place such importance on the plotline of the Silent Hill games that no one else really does.

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

Guys i wish i had someone to mock other than Guardian sometimes :(

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

winker I thought you just mocked everyone.

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

What on earth do you mean?
^&(^;

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Mr. Mechanical wrote:

Olivier, here's a hint: Toups is messing with you by this point and rather enjoying it.

Yes, please tell me when people aren't even trying to discuss video games, because I was under the assumption that was the point of this forum.

Adilegian · Posts: 124

Olivier Hague wrote:

But we don't need that, do we? Again, "Silent Hill 2" was the most personal story, and probably the one that relied the most on its "revelation", and the Cult wasn't directly involved at all.

Without the cult, you wouldn’t have the following things:

(1) Silent Hill as a locale of spiritual disturbance;
(2) Maria, manifested by the spirits of the place (see Born from a Wish scenario);
(3) Pyramid Head, a version of the cult’s Civil War executioners given symbolic value;
(4) At least two of the four possible serious endings: the Maria ending by consequence of point (2), and the Rebirth ending by consequence of the cult’s resurrection rituals.
(5) And most of the atmosphere of Silent Hill.

Points (1) and (5) may seem like they state the same thing. However, while All Gods’ Village from Fatal Frame 2 and the town of Silent Hill are locales of spiritual disturbance, both have distinctly different atmospheres. The placement of Silent Hill in the New England area, along with that region’s history of pilgrim migration into formerly Native American sacred grounds, all point to the Puritanism that has been, historically, interwoven with the cultural identity of the American New England area. The cult in Silent Hill is pretty clearly Puritanism with the volume cranked up to 11 [/Spinal Tap], and then taken aside for some fine-tuning toward evil. The paintings and the architecture all portray this sort of “local color,” even though (as you have written before) the “local color” is mostly Japanese artifice borrowing from American types.

Anyway, while the cult wasn’t directly involved as an instigator of the events of Silent Hill 2, its background and history with the game setting involve it by implication.

Olivier Hague wrote:

I don't think we're supposed to understand that Jasper had just met Joseph when you see him for the first time...
(but explaining that away with the theory that Walter has a time-machine? are you serious??)

Henry encounters Jasper, who generally refers to Joseph as having “been here” [sic]. Then he gives Henry a spade that Joseph left behind, and Henry also encounters a freshly unearthed grave that appears exactly as it was described in Joseph’s letter. If Joseph had been writing and exhuming coffins two years before, it seems unlikely that the grave would still been as intact as Henry finds it. After all, Joseph remarks in the same memo that “[the] storm must have raised the sea level. Anyway, that's how it was when I found
Walter Sullivan's grave.” Anyone with landscaping experience can tell you that high water levels hardly leave any environment as untouched as the Wish House cemetery must have been.

It seems counterproductive and even intellectually fraudulent to dismiss the plot as incoherent and disorganized, and then follow another’s explanation of the same plot with ridicule. If you can counterargue the point, I’m pleased to hear the argument. “Are you serious?” doesn’t foster either discussion or a congenial atmosphere, and it’s a pretty flaccid response to boot. It suggests that you’re unwilling to like the game—unwilling to grant it credit for doing things well that you haven’t appreciated—and that your reactions are all predicated upon that prejudgment.

Olivier Hague wrote:

But they never bother to explain how the Walter who killed himself in prison could be a "fake Walter". Or why that "fake Walter"'s casket would be empty. Or why Walter's numbers would be in there. Or why the "fake Walter" said he did it. Why he appeared to be scared. Etc.

I’m critical of this absence in the game, too, actually. The difference is that it doesn’t overshadow the positive aspects, at least not for me, and I don’t think less of anyone whose tastes run counter to mine.

It seems the writers expect that Walter’s supposed prison death is supposed to be assumed, on the part of the players. Joseph asserts it in his letters, we see the open grave, and we find Walter’s body strung up in Apartment 302. Beyond that—going back to the omnipresence of the cult—it seems wholly within the power of a cult that peddles hallucinogenic drugs and controls almost all the civic power in Silent Hill to set up a fall guy to die in prison.

These are not the conclusions drawn by the game, but that’s kind of the brilliance of Silent Hill 4. The game relies upon the audience (as the “Seeker of Wisdom” via association with Henry) to form a coherent picture of what’s happening in the game. For me, that’s part of why the “voyeurism” theme is well-executed. Rear Window used voyeurism in a movie and (in the process) developed a commentary upon the movie-watching audience as a collective voyeur. Silent Hill 4 uses voyeurism in a game and (in the process) develops a commentary upon the game audience’s need to draw conclusions based upon evidence, associations, and the resolution of contradictions.

Olivier Hague wrote:

The game wasn't supposed to be a "Silent Hill" game, and it shows. We end up with Walter Sullivan's background pasted on a story that wasn't supposed to be about him in the first place. So there are glaring contradictions. Many of them.

Yet it nevertheless is a Silent Hill game. At some point in the development process, they realized that the game would need to fit within the general Silent Hill canon, and they adjusted the scenario accordingly. I think they did it pretty well, too, given the thematic emphasis upon frustrated love (which is as omnipresent in the series as the theme of revelation).

Again, the contradictions disappear when you look at the evident priorities of the Silent Hill games. Those priorities don’t include canonical certitude, but rather thematic exploration and execution.

Olivier Hague wrote:

And when I said that I thought they felt like US movie characters thought up by Japanese people, I didn't mean that they felt Japanese. Just that they're like... well, copies of copies of copies of actual human beings. Characters that went through so many filters that they end up feeling way too "fake" (the awkward English script and dub don't help).

I want to clarify something for myself, just to make sure that I’m not taking something as offensive when it’s simply a compositional slip. Here’s what I read.

Just that they're like... well, copies (the Silent Hill characters) of copies (the American movie characters) of copies (Americans) of actual human beings (some presumably more genuine entity).

Like I said, I don’t want to take offense to something not intended offensively, so I’m just checking to see if you meant this or not.

chompers po pable · Posts: 325

so, anyone seen it yet?

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

Olivier Hague wrote:

Could we just skip the part with the amusing double standard reserved for newbies and have an intelligent discussion?

Hey go for it, I'd join in myself but I don't really care enough about Silent Hill to do so and everything I could say Toups has already said better. I have a feeling that if you keep trying though you'll just go around in circles with people.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Adilegian wrote:

Without the cult, you wouldn’t have the following things:

(1) Silent Hill as a locale of spiritual disturbance;
(2) Maria, manifested by the spirits of the place (see Born from a Wish scenario);
(3) Pyramid Head, a version of the cult’s Civil War executioners given symbolic value;
(4) At least two of the four possible serious endings: the Maria ending by consequence of point (2), and the Rebirth ending by consequence of the cult’s resurrection rituals.
(5) And most of the atmosphere of Silent Hill.

Yeah, but that's not to say the Cult is directly responsible for all this.
All the points you listed are parts of what I'd just call the setting of the game. The town's nature and history (and the Cult is part of it, indeed). And I'm not saying they should flush all that.

But did we need to repeat the plot of the first game in the third one?
Did we need the additional background of Walter being yet another pet project of the Cult to resurrect their god? The town being what it is, they didn't need that kind of excuse to have a supernatural serial killer story...

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

are they that way because that pertains to the plot, or because the creators are trying to be disturbing?

The game is about James coming to terms with killing his wife out of frustration, because it was going on for so damn long and he couldn't take it any more (he did it out of "frustration", etc). The two central characters that exist to remind him of this both have blatantly sexual traits (a monster that rapes? A demon that looks exactly like his ex-wife, except really horny?), and neither one is just an accident (nothing like a texture that somewhat appears to be a pussy or anything, these are both clearly intentially sexual).

So you're saying all of this is unconnected, unintentional and an unfortunate coincidence? That's a pretty massive blunder to make with the three central characters during most of the game (Maria, James, Pyramid Head). Of course, Laura, Eddie and Angela aren't sexualized (in Angela's case, not in a way that pertains to James), so that makes it doubly odd that the only characters "accidentally" given blatant sexual traits are the ones that just so happen to be directly connected to his crime. Funny coincidence, that.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

I decided to upload a new avatar because of this thread.

I don't even know what point mr. hague is trying to make at this point, so I'm going to hold off until I see the movie. Everyone behave until then!

Amsterdamn · Posts: 180

I think both sides are making their points well; It's too bad that the IC dickweeds have to all come out of the woodwork like some gang of 8th graders to snark and jibe at someone then nudge and *wink wink* at one another. It really makes the entire community look bad. Sethsez, your posts were far more convincing when you weren't taking up space to say "Mang, you is so retarded" over and over again.

Regardless, if the creatures really are intentionally sexual metaphors (which I am convinced they might be, maybe), what purpose does that serve? I've read President Evil's guide, and I am not totally convinced by his logic. Assuming that they are sexually metaphorical, what real purpose would that serve? James shows no real signs of sexual repression or digression throughout the game, either in it's events or the past. Hott Stott is the only person to really to offer any sort of idea on the matter, though he only made a (somewhat wild) accusation that James was raping Mary while she was sick.

Really, if anyone can sell me on this, I've pretty much been sold on the entire argument. I'm being serious!

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Amsterdamn wrote:

Regardless, if the creatures really are intentionally sexual metaphors (which I am convinced they might be, maybe), what purpose does that serve? I've read President Evil's guide, and I am not totally convinced by his logic. Assuming that they are sexually metaphorical, what real purpose would that serve? James shows no real signs of sexual repression or digression throughout the game, either in it's events or the past. Hott Stott is the only person to really to offer any sort of idea on the matter, though he only made a (somewhat wild) accusation that James was raping Mary while she was sick.

Mary's disease was "taking it's toll" on James, he was "frustrated", etc. Mary was sick for a loooong time, and James had a massive case of blue balls (it's not flat-out said, but there's certainly some dancing around the issue). It's actually a pretty typical issue for couples when one is seriously injured or has a terminal illness, though in those cases it usually only results in divorce (or if the healthy party is frustrated but feels too guilty asking for divorce, infidelity).

Pyramid Head and Maria don't just exist to remind James of his actions, they exist to remind him of his reasons as well. The man went for years without any intimacy, Mary was just getting worse, he grew to resent the hell out of her for it, and he finally snapped.

dhex · Posts: 2963

Amsterdamn · Posts: 180

dhex wrote:

what purpose does that serve?

trying to communicate about adult themes and concerns in a tradtionally childlike medium?

No, I meant "what purpose does that serve" as in the context of the game, not the medium. Sorry, my words were too vague.

Regardless, what sethsez sez, that definitely makes sense. I somewhat agree with Olivier in that the sexual anger that James felt isn't the most prominent of his issues, though it certainly has taken a part. It is also the most likely reason that James is so ready and willing to beat everything he comes across to death with an old wooden plank. Going without a good romp for 3 years can do that to a man.

notext · Posts: 13

Olivier Hague wrote:

Sure, these characters aren't exactly that deep anyway.
It's just that I think that how exactly she's different isn't that important to the plot. She is radically different. That's what really matters, plot-wise, in my opinion.

There are other ways she could have been radically different. (Plus what also matters, plot-wise, is that they're extremely similar.)

Amsterdamn · Posts: 180

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Amsterdamn wrote:

Was there a certain sexuality involved in his thoughts? Sethsez has me thinking yes, though I think intimacy is a better word for it than sexuality. I think some (but not all) of the monsters display this, and that Pyramid Head gangbang could go either way. It's just so... wierd looking, and definitely doesn't fit the bill of my threesome fantasy.

Well, it's a punishment for James, not a reward.

notext · Posts: 13

Amsterdamn wrote:

See, I don't know about that. The similarities between Maria and Mary pretty much end at their physical appearance. Other than that, I don't see any similarities between to two.

Well, we don't really know all that much about Mary, so it's hard to make a comparison. Their personalities do identifiably cross over during the prison scene though - at which point, of course, Maria trys to persuade James that all that matters is her sexual, "real" form. I'm still not really sure whether Maria is a distinct personality with Mary's face, or hypersexed distortion of Mary's own character.

extralife · Posts: 3316

I haev called SH2 the most "romanitc" game I've ever played. James love is real, his problems are even more real, and the entire game exists for no other reason than to explore that.

Which is why having Pyramid Head in the movie is dumb.

chompers po pable · Posts: 325

some spoilers...

Pyramid head is in the movie as a part of the town, a figment of the 'town', and in SH2 he was explained as a part of the town. In the game, he tormented James by showing James himself, perhaps James conjured him from SH's collective unconsciousness, so he was there for James, while still belonging to the town. In the movie, while PH doesn't really embody someone elses actions explicitly, for some reason he was rockin' the party, and it didn't suck. No harm no foul, as I was waiting for 80's metal to break out and PH to start singing a solo...nothing like that happened thankfully. I liked the movie.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

extralife wrote:

Which is why having Pyramid Head in the movie is dumb.

He's not the sole creation of James, and his figure is a central aspect of the town's background. And considering some of the changes made to the plot in the movie, even as a representation of male sexual violence he still fits.

There are plenty of complaints to be made about the movie, but this ain't one.

extralife · Posts: 3316

His figure is central to the town, yes, but his function is very much attached to SH2. I find it sort of cheap to parade him around the movie.

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

Hey guys from playing the game for a few hours i thought there was something rather sexual in James constantly putting his arms into orifices amirite

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

When I first started playing the game, watching James blindly thrusting his hand down various tubes, orifices, etc., I was hoping that eventually something would just rip his arm off, and it would radically change the combat system, requiring James to go through the game with only arm from then on.

That would've been awesome...