IC Forum Archive

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Amsterdamn wrote:

Was there a certain sexuality involved in his thoughts? Sethsez has me thinking yes, though I think intimacy is a better word for it than sexuality. I think some (but not all) of the monsters display this, and that Pyramid Head gangbang could go either way. It's just so... wierd looking, and definitely doesn't fit the bill of my threesome fantasy.

Well, it's a punishment for James, not a reward.

notext · Posts: 13

Amsterdamn wrote:

See, I don't know about that. The similarities between Maria and Mary pretty much end at their physical appearance. Other than that, I don't see any similarities between to two.

Well, we don't really know all that much about Mary, so it's hard to make a comparison. Their personalities do identifiably cross over during the prison scene though - at which point, of course, Maria trys to persuade James that all that matters is her sexual, "real" form. I'm still not really sure whether Maria is a distinct personality with Mary's face, or hypersexed distortion of Mary's own character.

extralife · Posts: 3316

I haev called SH2 the most "romanitc" game I've ever played. James love is real, his problems are even more real, and the entire game exists for no other reason than to explore that.

Which is why having Pyramid Head in the movie is dumb.

chompers po pable · Posts: 325

some spoilers...

Pyramid head is in the movie as a part of the town, a figment of the 'town', and in SH2 he was explained as a part of the town. In the game, he tormented James by showing James himself, perhaps James conjured him from SH's collective unconsciousness, so he was there for James, while still belonging to the town. In the movie, while PH doesn't really embody someone elses actions explicitly, for some reason he was rockin' the party, and it didn't suck. No harm no foul, as I was waiting for 80's metal to break out and PH to start singing a solo...nothing like that happened thankfully. I liked the movie.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

extralife wrote:

Which is why having Pyramid Head in the movie is dumb.

He's not the sole creation of James, and his figure is a central aspect of the town's background. And considering some of the changes made to the plot in the movie, even as a representation of male sexual violence he still fits.

There are plenty of complaints to be made about the movie, but this ain't one.

extralife · Posts: 3316

His figure is central to the town, yes, but his function is very much attached to SH2. I find it sort of cheap to parade him around the movie.

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

Hey guys from playing the game for a few hours i thought there was something rather sexual in James constantly putting his arms into orifices amirite

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

When I first started playing the game, watching James blindly thrusting his hand down various tubes, orifices, etc., I was hoping that eventually something would just rip his arm off, and it would radically change the combat system, requiring James to go through the game with only arm from then on.

That would've been awesome...

SinJin · Posts: 62

I think that movie needed more PH! He was probably the coolest part of that moive. The ending for me was "W-Hat?" but im guessing thats what it was supposed to be.

chompers po pable · Posts: 325

no.

I liked the ending, as it was bad enough to be a good one (unhappy enough to make me happy), and left room for speculation with some mystery and huge narrative gaps. I hope they don't make another one, because setting the scene for a part two is another thing the ending does well.

Shapermc · Posts: 2450

sethsez wrote:

Olivier Hague wrote:

are they that way because that pertains to the plot, or because the creators are trying to be disturbing?

The game is about James coming to terms with killing his wife out of frustration, because it was going on for so damn long and he couldn't take it any more (he did it out of "frustration", etc). The two central characters that exist to remind him of this both have blatantly sexual traits (a monster that rapes? A demon that looks exactly like his ex-wife, except really horny?), and neither one is just an accident (nothing like a texture that somewhat appears to be a pussy or anything, these are both clearly intentially sexual).

This is the whole reason pretty much. The sexual references are so damn blatant because if it was any less so (i.e. SH3) it would be overlooked. There was love here, and it was deep, personal, soul crushing.

When you have been married or even in an exceptionally long term relationship, come on back to the tread and say that James' situation would have no sexual reprocussions attached to it.

Also the sybolism for the creatured is emphasised by the MOVIE of SH. Granted, I have more complaints than compliments about the film, it does understand what is going on in 2 (which was Gans favorite) and brings them more into the forground for SH1. Why does James' representation of frustration and guilt involve SEX when Alyssa's involves BURNING? I mean, I can't point at this any harder.

Anyways, this is also pointed towards in the Making of Silent Hill 2 (I take it no one read my huge thread at FKW). The Making of, also tells a lot about what was different about Mary and Maria, and why they were different, and what attention was paid to which features.

Now Olivier, you say you want to have a discussion, but you don't. You are here to convince other people you are right by being bull headed and stubborn until you hope to sway someone to your side. Like Mr. Mechanical said, you are just going to end up running around in circles.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

Shapermc wrote:

When you have been married or even in an exceptionally long term relationship, come on back to the tread and say that James' situation would have no sexual reprocussions attached to it.

In the real world, yeah, possibly.
In the game, I don't think the staff had that in mind. I think they barely scratched the surface of that kind of situation (besides, that's all there was to scratch, really, given the cardboard nature of the characters). I think what the staff wanted to express is said at the end of the game. extralife called the game a "romantic" one, and I think that's indeed what it is and where it stops.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

Did they make Maria a "seductress" because "sex was central to the plot" though? Did they say anything about that?

You know, when sexuality is a main aspect of two central characters who serve the exact same purpose (Pyramid Head and Maria), and that purpose is heavily reliant on symbolism, it's pretty ridiculous to say it's just there for the hell of it and isn't important at all.

You're just being purposefully obtuse at this point.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

when sexuality is a main aspect of two central characters who serve the exact same purpose (Pyramid Head and Maria), and that purpose is heavily reliant on symbolism

In your opinion. Not in mine.

nocturnedelight · Posts: 430

Alright, game over. Everyone loses.

extralife · Posts: 3316

Olivier Hague wrote:

sethsez wrote:

when sexuality is a main aspect of two central characters who serve the exact same purpose (Pyramid Head and Maria), and that purpose is heavily reliant on symbolism

In your opinion. Not in mine.

You're just being purposefully obtuse at this point.

No, I sincerely think you're overanalyzing.

I think you're in the distinct minority on the "lol silent hill is all about cults and dirty things from hell that is it" stance.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

extralife wrote:

I think you're in the distinct minority on the "lol silent hill is all about cults and dirty things from hell that is it" stance.

'Just saying it's certainly not as "deep" as you make it out to be.
I'm in the minority? Big deal. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

Moogs · Posts: 928

I am sad.

This thread makes me sad.

Silent Hill is open to interpretation. Interpretations that usually lead into conversation. Not... waving of e-Dicks!

Stop it! You're all acting like red pyramid things!

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

guys if i was acting like a red pyramid thing then you would all know about it if you catch my drift

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

extralife wrote:

I think you're in the distinct minority on the "lol silent hill is all about cults and dirty things from hell that is it" stance.

'Just saying it's certainly not as "deep" as you make it out to be.
I'm in the minority? Big deal. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

When the creators of the game have come out and said that the put certain aspects into it to represent James' repressed sexual urges... yeah, you're wrong. I mean, it's not like we're arguing with no basis here. We know the mannequins with all legs served that purpose, we know that Maria is overtly sexual to be a huge contrast to his wife, and we know that sexuality was chosen rather than hair color, tone of voice or anything else because it's a central theme. We know these things because they have been confirmed in interviews and in the making of videos.

I think you're just annoyed that it went over your head and now you don't want to admit it despite overwhelming evidence, both in the game itself and from the people who made it. Give it up.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

winkerwanker wrote:

guys if i was acting like a red pyramid thing then you would all know about it if you catch my drift

Hey guys winker is saying he would have an erection.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

DID SOMEBODY SAY ERECTION

dark steve · Posts: 3002

Rud13 you are totally reading too much into winker's post.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

dark steve wrote:

Rud13 you are totally reading too much into winker's post.

Yeah, you have no way of knowing that he actually INTENDED to be talking about an erection, he was probably just saying random wacky stuff in an attempt to look weird. That's my opinion and also you are wrong.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

When the creators of the game have come out and said that the put certain aspects into it to represent James' repressed sexual urges... yeah, you're wrong.

Link?
Are you talking about the "metaphor" paragraph concerning the Mannequin creature, in the plot section of NTT Publishing's "Silent Hill 3 Kôshiki Kanzen Kôryaku Guide"? Nowhere does it say that it's a commentary written by one of the creators (those can be found, logically enough, in boxes called "creator's commentary").
And the Bubbly Head Nurse's "metaphor" paragraph says that they remind of Mary's condition. Eventhough they're nurses. So yeah, I totally think that was the idea behind their design. That couldn't possibly be an afterthought, could it?

Right here, I have an interview where Itô (the creature designer) says that while the first game's monsters were based on Alessa's memories, there was no such thing in the second game. He says that he wanted the monsters to be different from the classical "horror"/"fantasy" stuff, that there wasn't really any common thread in their appearances, and that he was just interested in Bacon's work at the time ("Silent Hill 2 Kôshiki Kanzen Guidebook" (ISBN4-575-16291-4), page 138).

But yeah, I'm totally off the mark. Please make fun of me. I'm so stupid for not seeing the "obvious" symbolism or how sex is "central to the plot" of "Silent Hill 2".
Yes, James had a "massive case of blue balls" because of his wife's condition. And that's why he killed her. Naturally. Even if the game doesn't say anything about that. Because getting laid is so important when your wife's dying, that theory should instantly come to mind. After all, there's absolutely no way in hell one could be single for extended periods of time, no matter the circumstances, right? "Silent Hill 2" is such a romantic game. I see the light, now, thanks to you.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

After all, there's absolutely no way in hell one could be single for extended periods of time, no matter the circumstances, right?

Hahaha, now I'm seeing the light at the end of this tunnel.

PS: Yes, it's a huge issue for many couples when one has a sudden serious injury or is diagnosed with a terminal illness. Sudden and prolonged lack of intimacy with a loved one causing strain and resentment in the relationship isn't exactly rare in cases where the illness lasts years.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

Hahaha, now I'm seeing the light at the end of this tunnel.

Hahaha. Yay for maturity.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

Yeah, James was horny, so he killed his wife. That totally fits with the end of the game, too. So touching.

That's also not remotely what anybody is saying. There's more to sexual relations in a marriage than "ME WANT MAKE PENIS FEEL GOOD IN YOU NOW".

How old are you? Have you ever had anything approaching a long term relationship?

And no, it isn't THE CENTRAL AND ONLY THING. It is a reason, an undertone, that isn't handled as directly as some of the other topics. This is what makes the damn game good in the first place.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

That's also not remotely what anybody is saying.

sethsez wrote:

Mary's disease was "taking it's toll" on James, he was "frustrated", etc. Mary was sick for a loooong time, and James had a massive case of blue balls (it's not flat-out said, but there's certainly some dancing around the issue). It's actually a pretty typical issue for couples when one is seriously injured or has a terminal illness, though in those cases it usually only results in divorce (or if the healthy party is frustrated but feels too guilty asking for divorce, infidelity).

Pyramid Head and Maria don't just exist to remind James of his actions, they exist to remind him of his reasons as well. The man went for years without any intimacy, Mary was just getting worse, he grew to resent the hell out of her for it, and he finally snapped.

So he "snapped" because he went for years without any intimacy. And how exactly did he "snap"? Divorce? Infidelity?
Nope. He killed her.

Yeah, I can see how that's "not remotely what anybody is saying".

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

I like to think that Pyramid Head rapes things to remind James of having sex with Maria before reminding him that he killed her, or because maybe James raped Mary and he's reminding him of that.

I'm more about the latter theory, personally.

CAN YOU FEEL THE ROMANCE YET?

sethsez wrote:

How old are you? Have you ever had anything approaching a long term relationship?

29, and yes. Sorry.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Olivier Hague wrote:

And how did he snap? Divorce? Infidelity?
Nope. He killed her.

I like how you keep bringing up "he killed her" as a reason that it's TOTALLY STUPID. Because killing a spouse due to (among other things) a total lack of intimacy for years in addition to dealing with her constant downward spiral is nuts, but doing it for other reasons is...

...

Oh. Wait. HE KILLED HIS FUCKING WIFE AND THEN CONVINCED HIMSELF SHE DIED YEARS AGO. HE IS NUTS.

Guess what: most spouses don't kill their sick partners at all, for any reason. This is because James is fucked in the head.

extralife · Posts: 3316

Oliver, you should totally watch the ending. Any of them. The fucking letter, man. Mary spells it out pretty good.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

sethsez wrote:

Guess what: most spouses don't kill their sick partners at all, for any reason. This is because James is fucked in the head.

Yeah, he was crazy to begin with. He's a killer. Eddie was totally right.
Sorry, I don't buy it.

The way I see it, he killed his wife because she was suffering, he was suffering, and they couldn't stand that anymore (for different reasons).
He "forgot" about all that precisely because he's not a killer: he had doubts about his motives ("did I kill her for her sake or for mine?") and couldn't bear the guilt. He didn't kill his wife because he was nuts. He became "nuts" because he had just killed his wife.
Yes, that's extreme, just like actually dying of a broken heart would be: that's the stuff romantic stories are made of. "Silent Hill 2" is a romantic story. In my opinion, James' libido not being mentioned outright isn't due to the fact it's an underlying reason for his act, it's because it simply wasn't a factor: James isn't a real human being, but a character in a romantic story.

extralife wrote:

Oliver, you should totally watch the ending. Any of them. The fucking letter, man. Mary spells it out pretty good.

I have the script right here, and I'm not seeing the same stuff as you apparently do, sorry. If anything, the end of the game pretty much shows how it was all about love, illness and guilt.
I wouldn't mind a game that also addresses sex, but "Silent Hill 2" simply isn't that game, from my point of view.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

insert credit
ME WANT MAKE PENIS FEEL GOOD IN YOU NOW

also, hey guys what's going on in this thread

boojiboy7 · Posts: 1104

I'm writing a massive response to this thread right now, so that is what's going on for me. It will be posted when it is done. it is going to be huge. I apologize.

Edit: See below. Yeah, boredom at work.

boojiboy7 · Posts: 1104

Apparently the concept of a central subtext is slightly beyond Olivier, so I am writing this probably overlong post to try and demonstrate the existence of at least a sexual subtext, if not that sexuality is the very core of the game. I do not have access to any of the various Silent Hill apocrypha, so I will not be commenting on the various interviews and devloper comments. My comments will be based on the script for the game, my own experience playing the game, and possibly some outside sources to help with interpretations.

Given that the final letter from Mary has been cited as ebing where some of the sexual tension of the game arrises, I guess it makes as logical a starting point as anything else.

Letter From Mary wrote:

In my restless dreams,
I see that town.

Silent Hill.

You promised you’d take me
there again someday.
But you never did.

Well I’m alone there now...

In our “special place”
Waiting for you...

So far, this is admitedly not too sexual. One could make conjectures about "special place", but I think she intends that to be Silent Hill itself.

Letter from Mary still wrote:

Waiting for you to
come to see me.

But you never do.

And so I wait, wrapped in my
cocoon of pain and loneliness.

I know I’ve done a terrible
thing to you. Something you’ll
never forgive me for.

What terrible thing has Mary done to James? Getting sick is not an act one inflicts on someone else. If you get sick, it is not something you 'do' to someone else. The guilt here is strong, but what is it for? A possible theory (one being strongly advocated by the IC board, and believed by myself) is that Mary feels she has trapped James in a relationship in which there can be no physical intimacy, no connection between partners due to illness.

Letter from Mary cont'd wrote:

I wish I could change
that, but I can’t.

I feel so pathetic and ugly
laying here, waiting for you...

In her consciousness of her own physical appearance ("ugly"), she knows why James doesn't come to see her. When she mentions that she is "laying here", she makes reference to her status as powerless, which ties into Freud-ian male sexual neuroses in such a large way that it will definitely be addressed later in this post. Just work with me for now.

Letter from Mary goes on... wrote:

Every day I stare up at the cracks
in the ceiling and all I can think
about is how unfair it all is...

The doctor came today.
He told me I could go
home for a short stay.

It’s not that I’m getting better.
It’s just that this may be
my last chance...

I think you know what I mean...

The last line of that could easily have multiple interpretations, and I think is intended as such. On one hand, the most obvious one, she means this is her last chance to get out of the hospital, to see James and be at home before she dies. There is another interpretation I see, though, given her statement of her physical appearance and guilt over trapping James, in that she may see this as her an James last chance to be intimate with each other. This comes out even more if one watches any sort of comedy where someone says that line, as I have heard it used way too often in reference to innuendo for sex. Not that it is neccessarily being used that way here, but it is a connection that I don't feel I am out of order in making.

Mary writes a lot for a sick lady wrote:

Even so, I’m glad to be coming
home. I’ve missed you terribly.

But I’m afraid James.
I’m afraid you don’t really
want me to come home.

Whenever you come see me,
I can tell how hard it is on you...

I don’t know if you
hate me or pity me...
Or maybe I just disgust you....

I’m sorry about that.

Mary is conscious of the effects her illnesss is having on James. She feels she disgusts him, depite her hesitancy to say so (the ugly comment above shows that she is conscious of this, but afraid to assign the revulsion to James). When she says she doesn't know if James hates or pities her, she echoes the confusion of the audience of the game to some extent, though I personally tend to find both emotions in James.

And she goes on... wrote:

When I first learned that
I was going to die, I just
didn’t want to accept it.

I was so angry all the time and I
struck out at everyone I loved most.
Especially you, James.

That’s why I understand
if you do hate me.

I find myself wondering what she means by "struck out". Was she violent towards James, argumentative, what? It isn't really a question that can be fully answered, but I do have theory. Given her guilt over her state now, Mary might possibly be feeling apologetic over the period just after her diagnosis, in which she fractured the relationship between her and James to such an extent that full repair of it is now impossible. Regardless, she acknowleges her love for James again, but then specifically contrasts it with the potential for hate from James.

We are getting to the end, honest. wrote:

But I want you to
know this, James.

I’ll always love you.

Even though our life together had
to end like this, I still wouldn’t
trade it for the world. We had
some wonderful years together.

There is an acknowledgement again of the idyllic past, the "wonderful years". Yet, again, I find myself wondering what has changed so much? Yes, there is illness, and weakness, and such, but as far as we know, this is no one's fault. Were the "wonderful years" years of phsyical closeness (the answer is no, as Maria will show later...well, actually earlier in the game, in their first meeting, but I will get to that)? Again, I don't have a lot of in game evidence to make any conjecture on the meaning of those years, so I will let it stand.

Wrapping up...Still Mary's letter wrote:

Well this letter has gone on
too long so I’ll say goodbye.

I told the nurse to give
this to you after I’m gone.

That means that as you read this,
I’m already dead.

I can’t tell you to remember me,
but I can’t bear for you to
forget me.

These last few years since I
became ill...I’m so sorry for
what I did to you, did to us...

Once again, what did she do? Illness isn't an active thing; it isn't a choice someone makes. Maybe her response to it, her distancing of herself from James, he giving into the weakness of the illness, could that be it? She didn't give in though, as the illness has gone on for the "last few years". Very few illnesses can alst that long in a person and not kill them if they aren't fighting it. OK, maybe she got Tuberculosis, though she never in the flashbacks shows symptoms of this, so I doubt it.

The final part..Whew wrote:

You’ve given me so much and
I haven’t been able to return
a single thing.

That’s why I want you to live
for yourself now.
Do what’s best for you, James.

James...

You made me happy.

This last part is also troubling, as she encourages James to "live for [him]self". This implies that he has been living for Mary before her death, despite the distance and ugliness that she has presented him with. At the same time, it gives him an excuse to leave it all behind, despite that Mary has said she doesn't want him to do that. Is James obeying this since Mary's death? Probably not, as I can't imagine a trip through Silent Hill is in the best interest of him (Certainly not if you go the "In the Water" ending).

-----------------------

So, with that basic examination out of the way, the problems of interpretting sexuality in the game become readily apparent. There are some undertones to the letter, but nothing comes out and just says "Hey, sorry we didn't have sex for the last few years there, my bad." There are other place in the game that are worth examining though to see if, as Olivier seems to claim, sex has no part in this game, or if, as IC seems to calim in general, sex is the key issue. One of the most fruitful instances to examine for this is the first encounter between James and Maria, quoted below in it's entirety from the gamefaqs script.

James meets Maria wrote:

*James makes his way further into Rosewater Park until he reaches an area that looks out onto the water(or what used to be the water). He sees a woman looking out at the lake and makes his way towards her.*

James: Mary?

*The woman turns around and smiles at James*

James: No... you’re not.

James reconizes on physical appearance alone that Maria is not Mary. As he explains below, she dresses differently and has a different haircut. Significant here is that James's first actual notice of Maria's differentiation from Mary is purely physical, though later on the differences become more than that.

The conversation continues wrote:

Woman: Do I look like your girlfriend?

James: No.... my late wife. I can’t believe it... You could be her twin.
Your face, your voice... Just your hair and clothes are different.

Woman: My name... is Maria. I don’t look like a ghost. Do I? See? Feel
how warm I am.

*Maria then takes James’ right hand and places it on her chest. James backs away and pulls his hand away from Maria.*

James: You’re really not Mary!

Maria: I told you... I’m Maria.

James: Sorry, I was confused.

Right away, actually, Maria is different in behavior from James's dead wife. She initiates physical contact between the two of them after only knowing the guy for a few moments, and places his hand on a fairly sexual area (I don't really fee the need to talk about why a female chest is sexual to a heterosexual male, Olivier, but I can if you want). "You're really not Mary!" as James responds indicates that this aciton is something Mary would never do (and I have to believe the tone indicates that this is something she would never have done, regardless of illness). James's acknowledgement of the confusion may have some Freudian implications with the name/ Oedipal stuff, and I may or may not get there. We shall see.

Conversation part III wrote:

*James begins to walk away from Maria in the direction he just came from.*

Maria: Where are you going?

James: I’m looking for Mary. Have you seen her?

Maria: Didn’t you say she died?

James: Oh yeah... three years ago. But I got a letter from her. She said
she was waiting in our ‘special place’.

Maria: And that’s here? Anyway, I haven’t seen her. Is this your only
‘special place’?

*What looks to be an old black and white movie clip of Mary is shown. This
seems to be one of James’ memories*

James: Well, there’s the hotel, too, I guess. The one on the lake... I
wonder if it’s still there.

Maria: The Lakeview Hotel? Yeah, it’s still there. So, the hotel was your
‘special place’, huh? I’ll bet it was.

*James begins to walk away and Maria reaches out to grab his arm.*

Maria: Don’t get so mad. I was just joking. Anyway, it’s not that way.
It’s this way.

The innuendo in Maria's joke is even acknowledged in the game, so to think that she is not sexual here is to ignore the game itself. She brings sex up very fast, with full knowledge that the man she is talking to confuses her and the woman he had sex with. Again she grabs him, furthering her physical contact with him, something Mary would never do.

Conversation - Teh End wrote:

*Maria points in the opposite direction that James just came from. James
begins to walk away from Maria in the direction she just pointed. Maria
follows him and James looks back.*

James: You’re coming with me?

Maria: You were gonna just leave me here?

James: No but...

Maria: With all these monsters around?

James: No, I just...

Maria: I’m all alone here. Everyone else is gone... I look like Mary,
don’t I? You loved her, right? Or maybe you hated her...

James: Don’t be ridiculous.

*James begins to walk away and Maria follows him.*

Maria: So it’s okay?

James: Yeah, fine.

This final section juxtaposes perfectly with the letter. A brief note on chronology. Given the intructions in the letter itself, it is reasonable to assume that James received the letter shortly after the death of Mary, and thus before the game begins. Then it should be no surprise that Maria, in her establishing contact with James, echoes the very last utterances of Mary. "I’m all alone here. Everyone else is gone... I look like Mary, don’t I? You loved her, right? Or maybe you hated her..." The sense of being alone, the ponderance fo love and hate, the abscence of others. All of this echoes the last words James has from Mary. So Maria is already acting far more physically intimate than Mary, but at the same time she is using Mary's words, twisting them in on James.

------------------------------

Later on, both in the scene where Maria and James are separated by bars and just before the final confrontation, Maria communicates to James that she can be whatever he wants her to be. There are (at least to me) Undoubtable sexual connotations to that, especially when she says she can't do anything with the bars in the way. These moments definitley give rise to the idea that James has a strong desire to be the controller of the relationship (if one takes the generally agreed upon supposition that Maria is a creation of James). With the disease taking its toll on Mary, James had no control over his marriage to her, and this might possibly be what Mary apologizes for. Yet, when he is given the chance to control someone, it is a person who is sexually open to him (created that way by him), and yet he does not take it.

---------------------------

To take a completely different tack on all this, Pyramid Head is a sexual symbol. As much as you may want to argue otherwise Olivier, it just is the truth. But, for the benefit of your doubts, I will spell it out. Let us start with his weapon.

He uses a giant knife (one could call it a sword if one were inclined, but whatever) covered in rust and too heavy for James to carry. Knives/swords have been acknowledge widely as phallic symbols since the term phallic symbol came into use. Look back at the tale of King Arthur (who siezes power of England by showing his physical strength to weild excalibur by pulling it from the stone) to find an early example of the sword as a symbol of control of one's own maturity and sexuality, for example, though I am sure someone on here could think of a more applicable one. Still, the sword itself is a phallic object, and when James is finally able to take control of the phallus, he is unable to weild it properly. Symbolically, James is unable to control the phallus, and thus unable to control his own sexuality.

The figure of Pyramid Head himself is sexual. Numerous people (I believe Freud himself) acknowledged that the act of building is in fact an act of replicatiing the phallus. The Pyramids in Egypt, then, are psychologically interpretted as phallic objects. If this doesn't work then, all we need to look at is James's own words about the figure, who he calls in this conversation with Eddie a "Red Pyramid". Red, the color of blood and flesh, combined with a pyramid, a phallic object, seems to combine to make the figure one of an undoubtable phallic nature. When one adds in the fact that the figure is a virtual giant in height, and combines it with the potential that he is the creation of James, coming to the conclusion that James has massive issue not just with his sexual relationship with Mary/Maria, but also with himself is only logical.

To compound this, Pyramid Head acts in ways that are sexually significant to James. His first encounter with PH is in a (admitedly left open to interpretation) rape scene. That PH is able to take sex from the monster in the apartment building speaks directly to James's own lack of ability to get any sort of intimacy with his wife. It is only then even more significant that up until the last battle, the only person able to destroy Maria is PH. JAmes wants to exorcise the demons of his past, which Maria embodies for him, but he cannot do it. Only PH, the phallic demon of James's sexuality, can destroy his past. Thus, when the PH's commit suicide in front of James, it is an acknowledgement that he has seized that role and is able to confront Maria head on. In James's final killing of Maria, he is finally able to take some control over his own sexuality, in the way that Maria herself was begging him to do the entire time.

--------------------

One last note, and one that I am developing as I am writing, so I am unsure if it will go anywhere. Given the phallic nature of PH and such, the influence of Freudian thought over this game is fairly obvious. What then to make of the name of the main female character, Mary/Maria? It is the name of the mother of Jesus, and a name associated thusly in western culture (which, despite being developed in Japan, the game si firmly rooted in) with the figure of the mother. In Freud, the well worn concept of the oedipal concept dominates the psychological landscape, so what are we to make then of James being able to have a marriage to a person given the name of the universal mother figure in Christianity? Maybe nothing, but possibly it could be meant as an exploration on some sort of Oedipal tendencies. I really am out of my league here, but it is a thought.

Once again, I apologize for the length of this. Even with that in mind, however, I still don't think I covered it all.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

boojiboy7 wrote:

Apparently the concept of a central subtext is slightly beyond Olivier

*sigh*
Yeah, I'm an idiot. Thanks.

boojiboy7 · Posts: 1104

Olivier Hague wrote:

boojiboy7 wrote:

Apparently the concept of a central subtext is slightly beyond Olivier

*sigh*
Yeah, I'm an idiot. Thanks.

Yes, you are. And here will be some good proof of that, as if the rest of this thread hasn't done enough to incriminate you.

nocturnedelight · Posts: 430

The origin of James is Hebrew, and it means Supplanter.

Supplant (m-w.com)
1 : to supersede (another) especially by force or treachery
2 a (1) obsolete : UPROOT (2) : to eradicate and supply a substitute for <efforts to supplant the vernacular> b : to take the place of and serve as a substitute for especially by reason of superior excellence or power

The origin of Maria/Mary is Hebrew, and both mean Sea of Bitterness

Also, I heard the name 'James' comes from the name 'Jesus'

Mary is the mother of Jesus. It could further Freudian ideas.

Of course, this is all just something to bat around. Who knows how far they took the idea of why the developers named their characters what.

Olivier Hague · Posts: 73

boojiboy7 wrote:

No, it isn't just sex but SEX IS A PART OF IT. Jesusfuckingchrist, would you at least acknowledge that? I mean, do you think that a married couple doesn't have sex?

Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse don't have sex. As far as I know.
We're talking about a work of fiction, here, and the creators were, in my opinion, going for the romantic angle. So sex isn't really part of the picture.

boojiboy7 · Posts: 1104

Olivier Hague wrote:

boojiboy7 wrote:

No, it isn't just sex but SEX IS A PART OF IT. Jesusfuckingchrist, would you at least acknowledge that? I mean, do you think that a married couple doesn't have sex?

Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse don't have sex. As far as I know.
We're talking about a work of fiction, here, and the creators were, in my opinion, going for the romantic angle. So sex isn't really part of the picture.

You do realize that you just compared two fairly realistic characters to a fucking disney cartoon? I mean, if you are only going to take characters in Silent Hill as being on the same level as the mice, then I have to say, I am done with you.

Are you so disturbed by sex that you are willing to think that two characters protrayed as being relatively realistic in all other regard would just not think about sex, despite the creation of one of them being sexual in nature? I mean, wow, major leap there.