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FortNinety
Posts: 4591
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 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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jutla, a really put everything nice and crystal clear.
Hey, sitting around and talking about what games we'd like to make is cute and all, but it gets old. And a tiny bit gay. Hell, I fucking design games (on occasion), and its something I don't really enjoy.
Its like when I hung out with film majors and everyone just sat and talked about what movies they'd like to make if they could. But then it becomes tinged with bitterness, and then the excuses come rolling in ("unfortunately, no one could ever make such a film, due to social conventions and/or the industry at large").
But its just so much worse with gamers. As I've mentioned before, there's this inherent need for anyone who's a fan to be a part of what they enjoy. Many folks who like comic books will try to make their own. And even though its not nearly as nice as what "professionals" produce, its still there, they've made something. Hell, the same goes will movie nuts; they can go out into the woods with a camcorder and some friends and make a movie. It won't be Spielberg or Scorsese, but its something. But gamers don't have that luxury, hence why so many I'm met and spoken with are so bitter in the end. Its why I enjoy going to comic conventions, but I simply cannot look at other people in the eyes at a game store. I simply cannot.
So what does one do when they can't create? They criticize and analyze, of course. And like any book or music or movie review, I take every single game review or deconstruction with a grain of salt, because I have to assume that there's a chance that the author just wants to say "I can do better". And it just seems that with video games, this longing is all the more obvious.
Plus, on a related note is all the hero worship that is involved, which is rather disdainful for rather obvious reasons.
Anyhow, one of the reasons why I myself give Guardian so much shit is that instead of just sitting and wishing, you gotta fucking go out and give it a shot. Once you fail, then you can complain. Otherwise don't, hence my original complaint in the this thread.
Now, if you want to sharpen your teeth as a game writer, then it perhaps understandable to complain about the level of talk around here, since it will either help or drag you down. But in the case of the latter, just find somewhere else to pontificate. Or just do it here, no one minds (well, mostly no one) unless it comes off super obvious what one's intentions are. Either that, or just don't complain that everyone is at your "level" which is what I'm getting. |
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nocturnedelight
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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jutla, a wrote:
Now, though, some kind of switch has been flipped off in my mind. ... I'll sometimes start writing a post in response to something in the games forum, and then I'll stop halfway, solely out of disinterest and apathy and not wanting to force myself to finish because that would just be going through the motions.
I feel this about most parts of my life, even, when it comes to writing (or maybe just typing, I rarely hand write, and the very few times I've had, it's been a lot...more enjoyable and such).
Even just journaling on my blog for my personal viewing and archiving, I would just stop half way, even in mid sentence. I'd just stop caring.
Or, at least, maybe that's how I just recently felt.
Late last night I got into a discussion/argument whatever about XBox360, PS3, business in general, and such with a friend of mine (who happened to be a business major, I guess). It was the first time in years I actually got deep into discussion, and was actually sharing what I knew and what I thought on a substantial level. It felt...well, first stupid (I hate talking about what needs to be done for 'XBox360' to 'beat' 'PS3', even just slightly touching on it and quickly trying to talk about the bigger picture), but great! (I was talking about in deep business related styles, about branding and consumer appeal, more...plus, just the fact that I was actually saying stuff of worth, even if the topic was ultimately worthless).
I don't personally think video games, or industry or whatever is what makes me dead to talking on a more than superficial way. It's just how I've been feeling about alot of things. And, it seems like other people are going through similar things when you read.
All I'm saying is that I challenge myself in other parts of my life everyday, so when it comes to forum board banter, so I really have no need for such a lofty goal.
I can fully understand what FortNinety is saying (in relation. I mean, I've shared a very very similar feeling and view.) And what comes to mind most specifically was there's a meeting I normally attend in person. I just stopped going for two months because I got so sick of stupid things being said, and, well, me being the only person ever arguing. As I said to my friend, I argue and fight for myself, for others, for principles, and whatever else enough in my regular life with my family, friends, and whatever else, I really didn't need (at the time) more shit.
antitype:
now I don't feel so special. :( |
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antitype
Posts: 1148
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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nocturnedelight wrote:
antitype:
now I don't feel so special. :(
You're still special in my heart, nocturnedelight. |
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jutla, a
Posts: 240
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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antitype wrote:
The crush-girl is poisoning your mind, Jutla!
I don't know. I don't think I can pin my apathy down on any one thing but if I could I would probably say it was playing Metal Gear Solid 3 too many times.
Really.
antitype wrote:
Then, four years later, someone shows me Tim's "literature of the moment" article, and it completely eclipses everything I'd recently been trying to do on my own. I decided to view this as a challenge — not something to try to emulate, not even necessarily something to surpass (because how do I compete with some guy living in Japan, working for Sony, being paid to lie and doing it extremely well?), but something to be inspired by in my own way. I started thinking about things like "killing the Buddha," and realizing that maybe I shouldn't even be participating in these forums at all, because just as much as they inspire me, they deflate me.
You know, I almost used to think this way, too. I found insert credit when I was a cocky loathsome fourteen-year-old in early 2003; the first article I read was Tim's "life, non-warp" piece and my initial thoughts were, I will fucking admit right here, something along the lines of "what the hell I've always wanted to write something like this why didn't I what the hell this 'tim rogers' asshole has a lot of nerve being who he is."
The second article I read was Eric-Jon's Metroid Fusion piece and my initial thoughts were "this is so fucking hard to read why the hell did this guy italicize every other word."
I, uh, still...think that about that. But I've repented on "life, non-warp." That's a good piece of writing that I didn't write and never did write and never could write. Tim and Aderack are smart guys who have figured out ways to leverage their smartosity in the field of writing about videogames. At the time, I thought this was a threat. I considered myself a smart guy. I thought, "I have so many insights about videogames. These guys just HAVE NOT SEEN THEM. WHEN THEY DO, THEY WILL JUST BE TOTALLY FLOORED."
I didn't join the forums until a year and a half after I'd discovered the site; I just had not ever been a forum guy. When I did, I was ready to ROCK. I posted all kinds of ridiculous shit that I'm glad is mostly inaccessible now unless you're willing to comb Google's archives. My first week, I remember getting into some kind of fucking dumb argument-over-nothing with Aderack and extralife over (yes) whether or not games should look good. I think about that now and I'm like, what the Jesus? I guess I was trying to talk about a sense of aesthetic wholeness or something, but I lacked the vocabulary, and anyway I was being confrontational, turning a minor point into something to WAGE A WAR over against the ENTRENCHED INSERT CREDIT OLD GUARD who just didn't UNDERSTAND MY GREATNESS.
I think Toups has said that he was the same way when he first joined. I wouldn't really know, because I think I came here a few months after him. But that doesn't matter, the point is, there came a time when I was like, wait, what the fuck, there is no competition. Because these smart guys are successful, why the hell should that deflate or inspire me? They're just doing their thing! That's cool! I'll just do my thing! Our things happen to be similar things, but they don't intersect that well. I can't emulate or become or pattern myself after Tim Rogers. He's not fucking Buddha. He's some dude. Aderack is not The Ivory Tower. He's a guy I shoot the breeze with about Doctor Who and this silly hobby of ours.
So, I don't know. I found it helpful to forget all of that madness about ambition and just...get on the level, you know. Things run their course naturally. You don't set out to be a mover and shaker, especially not here. And, if you're Guardian, you don't write, like, four thousand pages about game design. You just kind of hang out and talk about games if you're so inclined and things build on themselves by...themselves. It's like, you know, the universe twelve billion years ago with matter clumping together spontaneously or some such bullshit.
Otherwise you just come off, uh, weird. I now think you're a fundamentally good and also interesting person, but I thought you were kind of obnoxious the first coupel of weeks that you first started posting here, just because the...way you were thinking about the situation was bleeding into what you were writing and how you were writing it and how frequently you were writing these things and how eager you seemed to be to BREAK THIS INSERT CREDIT THING DOWN WITH ANTITYPICAL AWESOME.
IN CONCLUSION:
we should all forget about intellectualization and anti-intellectualization and chill. Like grills. Tilting at windmills. And paying the bills. Even if it kills. Because that's what fills. Our window sills. |
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Pijaibros
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: |
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FortNinety wrote:
Its just so much worse with gamers. As I've mentioned before, there's this inherent need for anyone who's a fan to be a part of what they enjoy....But gamers don't have that luxury, hence why so many I'm met and spoken with are so bitter in the end. Its why I enjoy going to comic conventions, but I simply cannot look at other people in the eyes at a game store. I simply cannot.
So what does one do when they can't create? They criticize and analyze, of course. And like any book or music or movie review, I take every single game review or deconstruction with a grain of salt, because I have to assume that there's a chance that the author just wants to say "I can do better". And it just seems that with video games, this longing is all the more obvious.
This is true, I often find myself doing it at times. The barrier for entry is unusually high for a game. Especially since most of the time we don't know shit about all the things needed to make a game. Music, graphics, coding, and even getting them all to gel together. With other media it is generally a little easier, heck some options out there even streamline the whole process to do it. Yet not for games, those take more time than the other hobbies as well. I would like to make a queer adventure title on my own, but these things take so much time and energy that I simply do not have it in me by the end of the day. I also can't draw a circle to save my life. I am already in front of a computer doing work (or pretending to) and when I get home I just don't want to do that anymore.
Also for such an expanding career field I wonder why the avenue for entry is absurd? For the other jobs it tends to be easier to get noticed or have sidejobs that will allow you the opprtunity to do your craft. Why does gaming tend to have such high barriers? It seems only two regions in this country even bother to do anything with games. While other forms of media have ample opportunities, at least compared to videogaming.
We should all get our heads out of our asses and take a deep breath. |
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nocturnedelight
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: |
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jutla, a wrote:
we should all forget about intellectualization and anti-intellectualization and chill. Like grills. Tilting at windmills. And paying the bills. Even if it kills. Because that's what fills. Our window sills.
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GcDiaz
Posts: 1057
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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I come here because it is so far the smartest videogame forum on the int0rwebs. Not that I've seen them all, or even a decimal point's pimple of a percentage of them all, but the level of discourse (the good and the bad) is surprisingly high. Frankly, I never imagined that videogames could inspire such intelligent conversation. So whatever, I don't feel the general level of conversation has deteriorated in my time here, and so long as it doesn't, I'll be around.
And yes, I found this place via "Dreaming in an empty room". |
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brainiac
Posts: 941
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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jutla, a wrote:
some kind of fucking dumb argument ... over (yes) whether or not games should look good.
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GcDiaz
Posts: 1057
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: |
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jutla, a wrote:
My first week, I remember getting into some kind of fucking dumb argument-over-nothing with Aderack and extralife over (yes) whether or not games should look good.
At least you didn't compare videogames to illegal drugs. |
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Hot Stott Bot
Posts: 2097
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Apparently I'm special because I found this place while looking for Shadow of the Colossus discussion, and not for any particular personality! |
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Hot Stott Bot
Posts: 2097
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Oh fine, I'm actually going to say something about this topic!
First of all, I like videogames a lot. Why do I like them a lot? I don't know. Sometimes they are really boring, in fact most of the time I don't like them, though I like them more consistently than anything else. And, when I think back upon the best media experiences of my life, all I can really think of are videogames. There are other things too that I've liked, but videogames are always my favorite.
Why do I want to talk about videogames?
Because I want to make videogames better. Also, when I like something, I want to show it off. I want to make videogames in my own sense of style. That seems natural enough to me. That's just the kind of person I am, I suppose.
Sometimes I like intellectual wankery, sometimes I like intelligent discussion, sometimes I like pure experiential discussion, sometimes I like anti-intellectual discussion, sometimes I like punnery and bullshit. All of it has its uses, and I contribute and read as I feel like.
And what of people becoming bored?
Well, I become bored with things all the time myself. I think it is simply a matter of running out of stuff to talk about. No really great or exciting videogames coming out right now, nothing to talk about on that end.
Also, as Fortran Ninety pointed out, there's simply a lack of opportunity for people to apply their ideas. When you spend some time thinking about stuff and having ideas, it is important to apply those ideas and get some new ones. Since I'm lucky enough to have a job and know a good handful of people in the videogame industry, I'm always trying to use all of my ideas and things I've thought about in application to any games I get a chance to.
That helps, especially since I'm not the type of person who is good at doing indie or solo projects. This is why I think some people (i.e., Guardian FINAL) should look for an industry job.
As for school, there's lots of interesting stuff to be had there as well. Almost every class I take I mainly spend trying to relate to videogames. Every paper I can, I try to make about videogames. That also keeps my interest fresh.
And that's about all I have to say about that. |
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Sawtooth
Posts: 2350
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Video games are fun and i enjoy playing them from time to time. |
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Wilkes
Posts: 1603
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hot Stott Bot wrote:
Apparently I'm special because I found this place while looking for Shadow of the Colossus discussion, and not for any particular personality!
I found this place from LPN, which I found from Lik-Sang. Mine was the most obscure discovery. not really at all
This discussion is faintly too full of familiar feeling. Frankly. I don't know if I would want to discuss how I first felt when I discovered the insert credit body of work. I will say it shook my life. I mean, altered it. It affected every aspect of me. Also, it's hard to know I'm not as smart as ajutla/tim/aderack/others. See, all that sounds idiotic, so I won't go into the kind of detail everyone else seems compelled to provide. I will say I was a vegetarian before I discovered tim rogers. ho.
The only thing I feel guilty about as far as this forum is concerned is how much time I spend on it. I could spend the time I'm here better, maybe. Though, I'd be perfer to just spend the time with greater sense.
Grmmmm. The writers here -- not the thread -- have me feeling bottom wrung. That and Brain Age says my mind is 52 years aged.
I'd love to see a bar graph of the kind of increase in posting Real Bout's seen in the last 48-hours. It'd be kind-of embarassing. |
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antitype
Posts: 1148
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Some friends have said to me before, "You're such an intellectual!"
I say I'm not. I'm . . . too intuitive to be a true intellectual. |
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artifact
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I've been hanging around here since the first day of the last forum, when I was in my senior year of high school. My presence has waxed and waned through the years, but it remains that insert credit has been a part of my life for a long time. I was around for (what's generally considered) the zenith of the forums, their demise, and their rebirth. Throughout the years I've seen countless posters come and go, friends disappear, and the personality of the forums change. It's like a funeral for a grandparent; it's both sad and happy at the same time.
Admittedly, IC has fit in better with my life in the past. Though I rarely find the time to post anymore, I still like to keep in touch with what's going on. That's just the way I am. INFP, you know. I care about people, perhaps too much. Still, I won't begrudge anyone for disappearing, nor will I begrudge the changing personality of the forums. Perhaps I would have in the past, but nowadays I've come to grips with the temporary nature of...everything.
I don't play as many game anymore. Sometimes I'll revisit old favorites, and occasionally I'll pick up a new game. My desire to be on the cutting edge, however, has long since past.
If any of you should disappear from these forums one day, good luck and godspeed. Find the happiness that you deserve, that we all deserve. Look back on the forums fondly, as a written testament to a small portion of your life. I do, and I try to remember the person I once was. |
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dhex
Posts: 2963
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I say I'm not. I'm . . . too intuitive to be a true intellectual.
i dunno man, judging by your livejournal you seem to get some pretty good weed, so like, yeah. |
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finnagain
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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artifact wrote:
INFP, you know. .
Join the club! |
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internisus
Posts: 961
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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antitype wrote:
Some friends have said to me before, "You're such an intellectual!"
I say I'm not. I'm . . . too intuitive to be a true intellectual.
I'm exactly like that. It's hard work to translate intuition into acceptable words. |
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Mr. Mustache
Posts: 551
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote:
I say I'm not. I'm . . . too intuitive to be a true intellectual.
i dunno man, judging by your livejournal you seem to get some pretty good weed, so like, yeah.
I wish I had some good weed :( |
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therumblefish
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
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I think there is a lot more intellectual discussion here than we realize. I came here because I have a lot of friends who post here, but the main reason was because of the level of intelligence.
Not everyone has a cool clique of friends to hang out with and shoot the shit about video games, or less subtle topics of equal, or varying importance. I certainly don't. So this place is a haven of sorts. A last bastion where I can come and really unwind, and most of all talk about things that are of certain degrees of importance in my life. From art, to film, to music, to video games. I don't think you could really find a better place to do it.
In perspective, I think it's just about keeping it real. |
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