IC Forum Archive

Lobst · Posts: 96

I just watched a video of the Microsoft E3 keynote. Peter Moore vaguely referenced Itagaki as working on a new game, "the trailer for which [could] be downloaded on Xbox LIVE Marketplace later this week."

I watched the trailer last night, on a friend's Xbox 360. It's for Dead or Alive Xtreme 2; it features new activities (in addition to beach volleyball) like jetski races, waterslides, picture-taking, and even a couple of new pool minigames (including one stolen from a Simple 2000 game where two women stand back-to-back on a small platform and try to push each other off into the water by bumping into each other with their asses). Watching the trailer, I laughed my ass off; frankly, I can't imagine a universe in which you're supposed to take either DoAX game seriously, as a volleyball game OR as a "soft porn" game.

What I'm wondering, though, is why did Moore decline the opportunity to name it at the show? I can kind of understand not showing the trailer -- I can imagine it not being everyone's cup of tea (side note: I'm gay, I bought the first iteration on the aforementioned friend's recommendation, and I loved it), but has it gotten to the point where the name itself is bad publicity?

As a reference, I downloaded the trailer from GameSpot. Attached to the trailer are "impressions" by a fellow named Phil Elliot, who echoes in his very words a meme that has spread like wildfire since an Andrew Vestal with a full head of curly red hair first looked at a booth babe, clenched his fist, and silently mouthed the words "Never Again.":

Red_venom · Posts: 338

Ive always kinda seen the DoA games as well constructed tech demos/BaBe DeMoZ(whoooooooa) for guys who want games to show off a new systems graphical prowess. So to me its kinda expected.

Yeah it sucks that some game journalists cant let the gimmick go and fulfill every gamer nerd stereotype... But I mean it is DoA so;[ Also I have no idea what he meant by that last line.

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

Lobst wrote:

It's for Dead or Alive Xtreme 2; it features new activities (in addition to beach volleyball) like jetski races, waterslides, picture-taking, and even a couple of new pool minigames (including one stolen from a Simple 2000 game where two women stand back-to-back on a small platform and try to push each other off into the water by bumping into each other with their asses).

It's got jetskis? That is so fucking cool. All it needs is jumping through hoops of fire or over sharks (maybe through hoops of fire over sharks) and the XBox360 has its winning game there.

inmatarian · Posts: 338

It's a two-sided problem. Sort of the combination of game developers (and pop-media for that matter) not knowing how to present female sexuality properly, and the gaming masses going gaga for what they mistake as female sexuality.

Besides, it's not like anyone is complaining about the bare-chested, perfect hair, giant muscles male figures in gaming. That's just as much false as DOA Volleyball is.

TOLLMASTER · Posts: 1977

I have an actual response to this. But that last pic you have there, and I think you probably already knew this if you were able to find that in-jokey image, but just in case: that's a guy in a dress.

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

TOLLMASTER wrote:

I have an actual response to this. But that last pic you have there, and I think you probably already knew this if you were able to find that in-jokey image, but just in case: that's a guy in a dress.

There's been a lot of that in video game fan art lately. I wonder if we should call it 'Doujinsploitation'?

extralife · Posts: 3316

I actually agree with you in the case of DoA Extreme Whatever. It's fine in that game. That's the point, and if you can craft something interesting out of it, go for it. If people want to get self righteous about DoA, the core fighting games are much worse.

chameleoneel · Posts: 1238

poor laharl, he got blackmailed with that pic

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

DOA4 is actually a pretty good 3d fighter

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

It's definitely the breast non-PS2 3D fighter around.

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

Back in 2003, I lived with a friend from college and his girlfriend. She and I went in together on a copy of DoAX for apartment use. I recall being amazed at how small a game it was; it had a breadth of content without having depth of complexity or length of difficulty of acquisition (in the sense that no single objective takes more than a few hours of play to acquire; getting everything is another matter). GameFAQs was rife with theories about additional, secret content; most people expected a hidden court, accessible with the right combination of game scheduling and finance management.

Yeah, we were bored.

Anyway, I'd really like to see someone compare and contrast Rumble Roses with this, specifically with an eye toward why Rumble Roses gets respect around these parts but DOAX doesn't. Beyond the Konami angle, I mean. I might just be misjudging something said in sarcasm... I don't know.

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

well rumble roses is HILARIOUSLY BAD for one thing

dark steve · Posts: 3002

Yeah, what does DOAX have for a story mode? Because RR's is a goddamn riot.

Szczepaniak · Posts: 815

Wait, aren't you a woman, lobst? (or was that someone else on IC? I forget so easily, but I'm sure there was a female poster with an avatar drawn in a similar style to yours... of a tree or something)

Because if so, then whoa. Just whoa.

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

Szczepaniak wrote:

Wait, aren't you a woman, lobst? (or was that someone else on IC? I forget so easily, but I'm sure there was a female poster with an avatar drawn in a similar style to yours... of a tree or something)

Because if so, then whoa. Just whoa.

Lobst's AIM name is 'titanicawayguy'.

Szczepaniak · Posts: 815

Oh. Ok. Cool. My mistake!

So then which IC user has an avatar of a palm tree playing Gameboy? Because I'm like 40-63% certain, that whoever had that avatar, was a woman (or most likely, still is a woman). And its style is similar to lobst's avatar.

See? You guys with your changing avatars. I never read usernames, ever. I base all my responses on people's avatars. And when you change them, I forget who you are. It's a visual thing. You know, cognitive-recognition, or something.

mortiismaniac · Posts: 35

This is a very intersting topic (an example of why I choose to post here rather than other sites). Usually when people talk about the strong sexual emphasis on females in games they give such a transcribed arguement. However its obvious that there is personal insight in what your saying.

I defend DoA:Extreme because there certainly is a nitch for it. Simple supply and demand in my head; some gamers like over-the-top sexual physics in games, the developer realzies that there are enough of these people to make a game devoted to this feature. That being said this DoA:Extreme doesnt look like anything I would ponder purchasing.

However, there are still alot of questions to be asked about the female archetypes in mainstream games, ones that dont fall in the nitch of DoA:Extreme. If you look back its something that has been there from very early on; on the side of the arcade cabinet Ms. Pac-man was shown as having large beady eyes, sensual red lips, a nice set of legs and those red stilleto heals. That characterization seems very unnecasary to the actual game (running from ghost and eating massive quanitites of food sort of implies the opposite of sexy). This example seems innocent when compared to contemporary games. Playing as a mostly naked vampiress in Bloodrayne for example. I wish there was a bit less of this sort of thing; its fine for games to have characters like this, I just with there were more games (not explicitely marketed to children) that have more varried female archetypes. I think videogames have been too reliant on female archetypes found in other forms of mass-entertainment (movies, tv etc.); so to that extent this wouldnt be an issue of sex in games so much as sex in generalized entertainement.

In a certain respect the domainance of these archetypes in video games is alot less exploitive than other mediums; there are no actual women in the games to be exploited, just a sereis binary characeteristics like polygons. On the the other hand these archetypes are alot more objectifing than in other mediums; that added level of interaction makes the objectification as sexual objects more pronounced and to an extent more perverse.[/i]

Lobst · Posts: 96

dark steve wrote:

Yeah, what does DOAX have for a story mode? Because RR's is a goddamn riot.

Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball begins with Zack (apparently the winner of the combat tournaments in Dead or Alive 3 [and voiced in this iteration by Dennis Rodman]) winning millions and millions of dollars, buying a private island with a hotel and casino on it, and inviting eight of the Dead or Alive girls on for a fourteen-day vacation. After you choose your player, this story is told in meticulously rendered, glamourously comic full-motion video.

Following a brief tutorial mode (during which, seven times out of eight you partner up with Lisa), you have a few options: You can play volleyball with any of the teams that are randomly hanging out at any one of the island's four courts, you can talk to one of the girls (if you can find them) and attempt to win them as a partner by giving them gifts and begging them to go with you, or you can simply hang out by the pool -- an option that allows you to play the Pool Hopper minigame, which is played by rhythmically pressing the same button at varying levels of sensitivity. Successfully complete a pool game and you'll be rewarded with a few thousand yen; successfully complete a volleyball game and you'll get a few tens of thousands of yen.

This money can be used at any one of the game's three shops: the Accessory shop (where you can buy shoes, makeup, hats, flowers, and lotion), the Sports shop (where you can get swimsuits for your character), and Zack of All Trades (which carries a randomized selection of truly miscellaneous items every day after it opens on Day 3). Zack of All Trades carries everything from fancy desserts to Japanese recepies to prototype Xboxes, and this is important, because when you lose your first partner you'll need to get one to fill the void, and you'll need to look over each character's Playmate-like list of statistics in the manual to determine what to get her. (Kasumi's favorite color is Milky Pink? They have an item with that color in the Accessory Shop! Let's roll!)

Each day is composed of four stages: Morning, Afternoon, Evening, and Night. The first three have you doing the stuff I noted above, but it's too dark at nighttime to do anything of note outside, so it's into the hotel you go. Your character is just in the middle of casually remarking how tired she is when she's greeted at the door by a gift from Zack (which could be anything in the game, including exclusive items like Tokyo Game Show videos and FMVs from previous games in the main series). You can then either head over to the casino to gamble away your hard-earned wages on any one of four games: Roulette, Poker, Blackjack, and Slots, you can give gifts to anyone you didn't see anywhere that day, or you can go to bed and start the next day in the cycle.

There's a custom soundtrack feature, too. It's fantastically implemented, allowing you to choose the frequency at which individual songs pop up on the randomizer. I filled mine with Brazillian music and songs from artists like Ian Pooley and Beanfield, bringing the atmosphere up to a near-record high.

And that's it, I guess. Fourteen days go by and you're treated to a character-specific FMV detailing... well, that's a spoiler, isn't it? Find out for yourself, if you dare!

After the credits, you have the option to start a new vacation with the choice of any character you want. The character you start with keeps the accessories and gifts any of your other characters gave her throughout the course of your last vacation. This is really neat.

---

For what it's worth, the friend who introduced me to the DOAX series is also a big Rumble Roses fan, and he owns both games. He says they get mediocre reviews because reviewers have a negative gut reaction to the act of looking at pretty girls. By no means am I qualified to give my opinion on this matter (I've only played one match in the second one), but if reviewers are somehow not expecting their intelligence to be insulted by a wrestling game, then... well. They have their work cut out for them, I suppose.

Anyway: I forwarded him to SiN Episodes: Emergence today; hopefully he'll dig it.

Szczepaniak wrote:

Wait, aren't you a woman, lobst? (or was that someone else on IC? I forget so easily, but I'm sure there was a female poster with an avatar drawn in a similar style to yours... of a tree or something)

Because if so, then whoa. Just whoa.

[...]

Oh. Ok. Cool. My mistake!

So then which IC user has an avatar of a palm tree playing Gameboy? Because I'm like 40-63% certain, that whoever had that avatar, was a woman (or most likely, still is a woman). And its style is similar to lobst's avatar.

See? You guys with your changing avatars. I never read usernames, ever. I base all my responses on people's avatars. And when you change them, I forget who you are. It's a visual thing. You know, cognitive-recognition, or something.

Both avatars are mine. Nah, I'm not a woman -- just a very androgynous guy with a somewhat androgynous writing style. Drawing style, too. I occasionally play myself up as something else for kicks, but I thought I cordoned that behavior off from this board. Guess it bled over? (Devious, I know, but at least it's better than deliberately trolling someone else's thread because I "like messing with people's heads". Right?)

Which is a shame, because making an argument like this would be loads easier if I didn't have to justify a man's portrayal of women from the perspective of someone who isn't a woman.

dhex · Posts: 2963

sin episodes kinda sucks.

and it suffers from the same "i'm a badass chick who happens to wander into combat with a halter top on" thing that reminds us always that the core market for most games is a 15 year old male, even if they're trapped in a 25 year old body.

say what you will about hl2, at least alyx wore clothes.

Lobst · Posts: 96

Really? I played through most of it yesterday, and in spite of the explosions, swear words, and large-breasted female characters, I found it extremely competent. So much, in fact, that if it were a free third-party mod for HL2 I'd insist on putting a few dollars into their PayPal account.

Fun fact: The game's by Ritual Entertainment, a bunch of 3D Realms castaways that are also responsible for a great (and relevant!) third-person shooter called Heavy Metal FAKK 2, in which you play an alternate-dimension iteration Julie Strain who wears progressively less and less clothing as the game continues on. For me, the distinguishing characteristic was the fact that Julie gets to wield two weapons at once (the first one usually a sword), and each weapon combination yields new individualized combat techniques. It also contains mild platforming elements that are a bit like Tomb Raider without the frustrating movement system.

One of the game's defining moments (and this can be found in the demo) features Julie hanging and shimmying across a sheer cliff face. There's a sign that says BEWARE: FALLING ROCKS. The falling rocks actually have no effect on you (they miss you by a few inches); they were clearly added for dramatic effect. Only problem is, you don't actually see the falling rocks unless you're positioning the camera to look up between her legs as she performs this death-defying maneuver, so if you're playing the game as someone who isn't interested in spandex panty-shots (as I did), you hear some dynamically implemented dramatic music, and see a couple of nondescript polygons zoom by at high speed.

Really, I was amazed at how great the game was in spite of it. These guys (including veteran developer Richard "Levelord" Gray, a man who once sketched an outline of a vulva around the USB ports on the front of his computer and put it up on his website) are somehow able to implement high-quality gameplay with the "huge titties" component as a secondary element of the final product.

dhex · Posts: 2963

well, i only played it for two hours, but the otherwise good idea of scaling enemies isn't so hot. the voice acting is ok, though. competent enough.

but it mostly feels like a third party mod, rather than a standalone game that just happens to use source.

it feature some seriously unnecessary boobitage as well.

Zarak · Posts: 293

dhex wrote:

the core market for most games is a 15 year old male, even if they're trapped in a 25 year old body.

I'm a 12 year old at heart. Still like boobies, of course.

I agree with the comment about DOAX part I being very "small", it's surprising how little there is to it. I kept thinking it really needed a sequel that took the same basic idea and piled on a lot more stuff, but now there's a sequel coming and I don't really care that much.

I mean, I'll say it again, that trailer creeped me out. Nice that their breasts aren't locked in geosynchronous orbit around the girls anymore, but they look like they're molded out of plastic. Even more than they used to, I mean. It's weird to look at at.

Talbain · Posts: 628

Szczepaniak wrote:

Oh. Ok. Cool. My mistake!

So then which IC user has an avatar of a palm tree playing Gameboy? Because I'm like 40-63% certain, that whoever had that avatar, was a woman (or most likely, still is a woman). And its style is similar to lobst's avatar.

See? You guys with your changing avatars. I never read usernames, ever. I base all my responses on people's avatars. And when you change them, I forget who you are. It's a visual thing. You know, cognitive-recognition, or something.

This is rather ironic for a journalist to be saying this.

For the Original Poster... I'd just say not to worry about it. Sex in games isn't going anywhere, and neither is the pretentious assumption by journalists that somehow everything's going to end up being politically correct. Then again, I never understand why people actually bother to read reviews (or previews, or any other "views." You're an intelligent human being. Make your own damn decision). I prefer to get information from 3rd parties (such as insert credit or other forums, where I can actually talk to a person about the quality of a product) if I want an opinion.

dhex · Posts: 2963

there's sex in games much in the same way there's mature conflict resolution in games.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

thread over.

Sawtooth · Posts: 2350

dhex wrote:

there's sex in games much in the same way there's mature conflict resolution in games.

*plays duke nukem*

edit: oh whoops hi rud13

WarpZone · Posts: 396

extralife wrote:

I actually agree with you in the case of DoA Extreme Whatever. It's fine in that game. That's the point, and if you can craft something interesting out of it, go for it.

Yeah, exactly. I don't think it's trying to fool anyone.

And jet skis, and some of the other events in the sequel, sound like a perfect match for its aesthetic.

Zepyulos · Posts: 176

Talbain wrote:

Then again, I never understand why people actually bother to read reviews (or previews, or any other "views." You're an intelligent human being. Make your own damn decision).

Intelligent human beings, those I know at least, can read previews and reviews without giving up the right to having an opinion.

Whether one reads them is one's own damn decision, of course.

So on topic, I have a great idea for a sexy game. I'll need my own dev team and some time, so look for it in Q4 2010.

TOLLMASTER · Posts: 1977

My main problem with games with women is that it is usually obvious that the female character was added to be a love interest or for cheesecake shots. Much of the time, it feels as if the designer creates a few interesting characters, creates their personalities, and at the end throws in one or two women to appeal to the fanbase. I don't have much problem with obvious exploitation, a la DOAX, since I don't really expect anything serious. But otherwise good games have empty-headed women in them and it feels extraneous. I don't have much experience with women, mind you, but I'm pretty sure that there exist at least some women with real personalities and ideas beyond "hey let's follow the cute hero with whatever he's doing lalalalaa kawaii ^_^"

I am really getting sick of "spunky girl who will fall in love with you" and "perfect mild-mannered Japanese wife who will fall in love with you" by this point. Please stop.

Zarak · Posts: 293

Rachel in Ninja Gaiden was more offensive/hilarious than all the DOA girls put together. An aryan princess in S&M gear who gets captured every fifteen minutes only to be saved by our stoic hero Ryu, who she totally has the hots for, but of course he's way too caught up in important manly ninja stuff to bother with nailing her, which he could of course easily do if he felt like, he's just way too serious-minded to be messing around with the playboy models that are constantly throwing themselves at him. Just like you there, with the controller.

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

rachel gets covered in tentacle monster goo for a REASON people!!

and chuplayer could probably explain the reason to us.

zebadayus · Posts: 672

I don't want to resign myself to believing than the video game industry is filled with a bunch of shallow, sexually frustrated (as well as deprived) nerds that know jack squat about the female sex, but...

Hey guys, who do you think is the hottest DOA girl? I'm thinking Ayane or Lei-Fang. Close call.

extralife · Posts: 3316

Helena, or the chick with the white hair.

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

zebadayus wrote:

I don't want to resign myself to believing than the video game industry is filled with a bunch of shallow, sexually frustrated (as well as deprived) nerds that know jack squat about the female sex, but...

Hey guys, who do you think is the hottest DOA girl? I'm thinking Ayane or Lei-Fang. Close call.

Kasumi, just because she looks the best in a schoolgirl uniform.

the drunken samurai · Posts: 4645

extralife wrote:

the chick with the white hair.

christie(?)

extralife · Posts: 3316

If that's her name!

the drunken samurai · Posts: 4645

extralife wrote:

If that's her name!

it is!

Kazu · Posts: 894

the drunken samurai wrote:

extralife wrote:

If that's her name!

it is!

The second best thing about this url - British computer and video games-characters ...

and the best one being Fictional assassins. Wiki really has 'em all

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Nana Komatsu wrote:

zebadayus wrote:

I don't want to resign myself to believing than the video game industry is filled with a bunch of shallow, sexually frustrated (as well as deprived) nerds that know jack squat about the female sex, but...

Hey guys, who do you think is the hottest DOA girl? I'm thinking Ayane or Lei-Fang. Close call.

Kasumi, just because she looks the best in a schoolgirl uniform.

Yeah, I'm a Kasumi man myself.

Also, fuck you guys. You're making me want to play Ninja Gaiden again.

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

I vote Tina, the American Dream!

She's a model/actress/rock star!

I always am a fan of grappler characters.

Talbain · Posts: 628

Zepyulos wrote:

Talbain wrote:

Then again, I never understand why people actually bother to read reviews (or previews, or any other "views." You're an intelligent human being. Make your own damn decision).

Intelligent human beings, those I know at least, can read previews and reviews without giving up the right to having an opinion.

I disagree. At least, it's not their opinion entirely anymore.

dhex · Posts: 2963

ohhhhhhhhhkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

TOLLMASTER · Posts: 1977

Kazu wrote:

the drunken samurai wrote:

extralife wrote:

If that's her name!

it is!

The second best thing about this url - British computer and video games-characters ...

and the best one being Fictional assassins. Wiki really has 'em all

It's weird that they have "fictional alien species" and the like. I mean, I do guess it is best to plan for the future.

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

Talbain wrote:

Zepyulos wrote:

Talbain wrote:

Then again, I never understand why people actually bother to read reviews (or previews, or any other "views." You're an intelligent human being. Make your own damn decision).

Intelligent human beings, those I know at least, can read previews and reviews without giving up the right to having an opinion.

I disagree. At least, it's not their opinion entirely anymore.

So, if I play a game and have an unusual experience, checking with others to see if I've come to a fair appraisal or instead that my experience was unique somehow invalidates my original conclusion? Gathering perspective contaminates the original idea? Writers that use citations can be disregarded as derivative hacks?

Thanks, Talbain. I wasn't sure whether originality was really as overrated as I thought it was, but you've confirmed it.

Talbain · Posts: 628

I'd ask you to define what unique means. There are few truly "unique" ideas or experiences. Just about everything is a derivation of something else. Most people live off of simple mimicry.

A car, for example, while a somewhat original idea, is not particularly "unique." Wagons existed for a long time before that. If there was something unique about any of them, it would have to be something more basic. The wheel, for example, is something that is unique. Everything afterwards is a derivation of the wheel. Similarly, the idea for production lines or the division of labor. These things are ideas that might be considered "unique." But almost everything else? Just a derivation of experience and the assumption that expanding an already existing idea is actually unique.

To use a very cheap metaphor: a PS3 is little more than an expansion of the PS2, which was an expansion of the PS1, which was an expansion of CD devices, which was an expansion of Floppy disks, which was an expansion of the Hard Drive... and you could keep doing this forever till you get back to the original, and truly "unique" idea (which, in this case, I would believe to be electricity, or the harnessing thereof).

Edit: Ultimately what I am saying Intentionally is that yes, basically if you have truly original ideas, you'll either have people start calling you crazy or someone will try to steal the ideas and claim them as their own. Ford was a man who often is credited with the production of an "assembly line." The idea had already been around for a long time, Ford simply applied it to cars. The theory of relativity and the splitting of the atom are targets of much debate and dispute, particularly concerning Einstein as a "valid" scientist at this point. Tesla's inventions were frequently stolen because he never claimed patents to them, eventually leading to him burning much of his research due to fear of exploitation. Most people who claim to have either original or unique ideas are full of shit or their full ramifications are not realized until long after the person in question has passed away. So I would hardly say it is unreasonable to be skeptical of another person's "original idea," given the historical context.

bort · Posts: 319

... and that's how videogame reviews brainwash us. Great stuff!

Lestrade · Posts: 817

TOLLMASTER wrote:

... I'm pretty sure that there exist at least some women with real personalities and ideas beyond "hey let's follow the cute hero with whatever he's doing lalalalaa kawaii ^_^"

I am really getting sick of "spunky girl who will fall in love with you" and "perfect mild-mannered Japanese wife who will fall in love with you" by this point. Please stop.

Yeah, see The Grand List of RPG Clichés for more of that.

DOAX is one thing, but we need to remove such tired, clichéd characters from the "serious" games. We have so few variations: burly man-hero, chesty-pouty heroine, Japanese super-serious tortured warrior... etc. etc. I mean when I first heard of Harry in Silent Hill (see what I mean, Dhex?), I was elated that there was finally a game character who wasn't a paper-thin archetype.

I can't think of a single female character like this, though.

Oh wait! How about Victoria in Still Life? There wasn't a single shower scene or fan-service shot in that whole game; and she said "fuck" a lot. She is probably my favourite videogame heroine.

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

alex in halflife 2 was pretty good as far as non-cliche goes.

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

Jade from Beyond Good and Evil seemed moderately more realistic than most female video game characters I've seen.

dhex · Posts: 2963

the lack of cleavage in hl2 was a breath of fresh air.