IC Forum Archive

dhex · Posts: 2963

ohhhhhhhhhkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

TOLLMASTER · Posts: 1977

Kazu wrote:

the drunken samurai wrote:

extralife wrote:

If that's her name!

it is!

The second best thing about this url - British computer and video games-characters ...

and the best one being Fictional assassins. Wiki really has 'em all

It's weird that they have "fictional alien species" and the like. I mean, I do guess it is best to plan for the future.

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

Talbain wrote:

Zepyulos wrote:

Talbain wrote:

Then again, I never understand why people actually bother to read reviews (or previews, or any other "views." You're an intelligent human being. Make your own damn decision).

Intelligent human beings, those I know at least, can read previews and reviews without giving up the right to having an opinion.

I disagree. At least, it's not their opinion entirely anymore.

So, if I play a game and have an unusual experience, checking with others to see if I've come to a fair appraisal or instead that my experience was unique somehow invalidates my original conclusion? Gathering perspective contaminates the original idea? Writers that use citations can be disregarded as derivative hacks?

Thanks, Talbain. I wasn't sure whether originality was really as overrated as I thought it was, but you've confirmed it.

Talbain · Posts: 628

I'd ask you to define what unique means. There are few truly "unique" ideas or experiences. Just about everything is a derivation of something else. Most people live off of simple mimicry.

A car, for example, while a somewhat original idea, is not particularly "unique." Wagons existed for a long time before that. If there was something unique about any of them, it would have to be something more basic. The wheel, for example, is something that is unique. Everything afterwards is a derivation of the wheel. Similarly, the idea for production lines or the division of labor. These things are ideas that might be considered "unique." But almost everything else? Just a derivation of experience and the assumption that expanding an already existing idea is actually unique.

To use a very cheap metaphor: a PS3 is little more than an expansion of the PS2, which was an expansion of the PS1, which was an expansion of CD devices, which was an expansion of Floppy disks, which was an expansion of the Hard Drive... and you could keep doing this forever till you get back to the original, and truly "unique" idea (which, in this case, I would believe to be electricity, or the harnessing thereof).

Edit: Ultimately what I am saying Intentionally is that yes, basically if you have truly original ideas, you'll either have people start calling you crazy or someone will try to steal the ideas and claim them as their own. Ford was a man who often is credited with the production of an "assembly line." The idea had already been around for a long time, Ford simply applied it to cars. The theory of relativity and the splitting of the atom are targets of much debate and dispute, particularly concerning Einstein as a "valid" scientist at this point. Tesla's inventions were frequently stolen because he never claimed patents to them, eventually leading to him burning much of his research due to fear of exploitation. Most people who claim to have either original or unique ideas are full of shit or their full ramifications are not realized until long after the person in question has passed away. So I would hardly say it is unreasonable to be skeptical of another person's "original idea," given the historical context.

bort · Posts: 319

... and that's how videogame reviews brainwash us. Great stuff!

Lestrade · Posts: 817

TOLLMASTER wrote:

... I'm pretty sure that there exist at least some women with real personalities and ideas beyond "hey let's follow the cute hero with whatever he's doing lalalalaa kawaii ^_^"

I am really getting sick of "spunky girl who will fall in love with you" and "perfect mild-mannered Japanese wife who will fall in love with you" by this point. Please stop.

Yeah, see The Grand List of RPG Clichés for more of that.

DOAX is one thing, but we need to remove such tired, clichéd characters from the "serious" games. We have so few variations: burly man-hero, chesty-pouty heroine, Japanese super-serious tortured warrior... etc. etc. I mean when I first heard of Harry in Silent Hill (see what I mean, Dhex?), I was elated that there was finally a game character who wasn't a paper-thin archetype.

I can't think of a single female character like this, though.

Oh wait! How about Victoria in Still Life? There wasn't a single shower scene or fan-service shot in that whole game; and she said "fuck" a lot. She is probably my favourite videogame heroine.

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

alex in halflife 2 was pretty good as far as non-cliche goes.

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

Jade from Beyond Good and Evil seemed moderately more realistic than most female video game characters I've seen.

dhex · Posts: 2963

the lack of cleavage in hl2 was a breath of fresh air.

zebadayus · Posts: 672

Suikoden V has these two females named Sialeeds and Lucretia who... I just about fell in love with.

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

So check this out and note the author IS female:
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/19/girls-n-games-event-this-news-is-so-old/

I disagree with her points. Sure, these may be the exact same things any woman who is trying to get the video game industry to recognize her would say, but even if they are repeated they're still valid points. I do not believe the industry realize these things.

And while yes, harping the same mantra every year is going to turn a lot of developers off, how much change are we seeing in games every year over the last that will make the industry more friendly for female gamers or developers?

So maybe the 'women in games' movement is a stuck record, but I was taught if you want to learn something you need to keep repeating it to yourself until it sticks.

Cycle · Posts: 1574

When I bought a game, two others came with it. This was one of them. It claims to be the first racing game "By girlz FOR girlz!" and pretty much sums up where things are going wrong.

All the characters look like those bratz dolls and have POWERFUL WOMAN jobs like HR consultant (PREPARE FOR CHANGE!) and taxi driver (Do you feel me??). The power-ups include parasols, hand-held mirrors and mobile phones.

All the game needed was the ability to ACCESORIZE your character with ear-rings and make-up and boob jobs.

In regards to the panel, it's true that it's the same stuff being talked about again and again. I'd like to see some more action and less talking, personally, but I imagine it wouldn't be easy to make a change like that and people need to actually listen to them first. But yeah.

bitwize · Posts: 36

Tetsuya Nomura is probably doing more for gaming for girls than anyone else in the industry right now.

Think of it: With every game or media item that carries his name, there's more OMGBISHIES, more homoerotic innuendo, more black leather and belts and zippers.

Now I'm all for gay acceptance but they're still only 10% of the population, so I surmise that all this is an attempt to capture and retain the very large and lucrative fangirl market.

So there you have it -- you want games for girls? Follow the bishies.

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

bitwize wrote:

Tetsuya Nomura is probably doing more for gaming for girls than anyone else in the industry right now.

Think of it: With every game or media item that carries his name, there's more OMGBISHIES, more homoerotic innuendo, more black leather and belts and zippers.

Now I'm all for gay acceptance but they're still only 10% of the population, so I surmise that all this is an attempt to capture and retain the very large and lucrative fangirl market.

So there you have it -- you want games for girls? Follow the bishies.

No.

Balzac · Posts: 361

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

No.

Hey, at least when the pundits say all characters in gaming are highly sexualized, they won't just be referring to the Lara Crofts and whatnot. And maybe in time, some of those fangirls will mature, get involved in the industry, and start making things relevant to them.

Great, now I'm imagining a female version of David Jaffe...

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

I don't think the industry needs a bunch of women working on games to make the art a bit less silly. I think the problem is when male game developers simply don't bother to think about all of the people who might play their game. I mean, if you just think to yourself, "would I be comfortable letting my sister have this game?" that would probably change things quite a bit.

Of course, more women in development would help things a lot. On top of the usual "girls instead of boys making stuff" argument, when you have female co-workers then you do naturally think about them as a potential audience.

However, people of either gender make media all of the time that's perfectly acceptable to both genders. Everyone infuses a bit of their own thinking into things, but there's no reason you can't make something for peope not like yourself if you focus on who you're making the product for and why.

Baines · Posts: 906

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

I think the problem is when male game developers simply don't bother to think about all of the people who might play their game.

They are thinking about most of the people who will play their game.

Except perhaps those that try to make those "designed and marketed towards girls" games that no one actually plays.

Loolapaloozer · Posts: 209

Zero Suit Samus? Maybe?

MOAR:

http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/51441520060525_142709_6_big.jpg
http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/51441520060525_142708_5_big.jpg
http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/51441520060525_142707_4_big.jpg

chevluh · Posts: 183

Zero suit Samus looks like a step in the wrong direction to me. She's become just another girl-in-a-tight-fitting-suit-with-guns so many videogames display since tomb raider. She used to be a character that was devoid of the chicksploitation aspects, because she was encased in that armor - many people wouldn't even realize she was a girl until she got a voice in Prime unless they finished the games.

Now she's got some kind of laser whip and the first thing they show you in full light in the trailer is her butt.

Cycle · Posts: 1574

I dunno man, the reward for finishing the games quickly is getting a shot of her in her underwear.

chevluh · Posts: 183

True enough.

Lestrade · Posts: 817

Yeah, the "new" sexy Samus is a step in the wrong direction. For ULTIMATE TRUTH see the Japanese Zero Mission commercial.

Just for the record, I want to say that Kasumi in DOA is a fine example of a strong female lead.

thatbox · Posts: 816

Lestrade wrote:

For ULTIMATE TRUTH see the Japanese Zero Mission commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGq90yUttzs&search=japanese%20zero%20mission

I was disappointed when I saw New Sexy Samus, but also a little bit not. I mean, she is new and sexy.

Baines · Posts: 906

Samus wasn't really bad until the GBA.

The NES needed the bikini just so that you could be certain she *was* a woman.

The SNES built upon the NES version with better graphics. One could argue the purpose of the explosion bikini animations (Samus in her bikini is present in the death animation and the healing power bomb animation.) It might be a bit of "sexploitation," or it might be a move towards accomodating gamers that either can't or won't beat the game in a fashion to see Samus out of the armor. That you cannot play a "second quest" with Samus in her now more defined womanly bikini could itself be either an attempt to shift away from sexploitation, or just Nintendo being cheap about making and including a full action sprite set for bikini'd Samus.

Prime got about as far away from it as you could. You could see her face at times. Even the bonus images only showed her head without armor.

Then there were the GBA games. Zero Mission's commercial, and her blue suit in the game... And while both Zero Mission and Fusion clothed her a bit more than the Super Metroid black bikini, now you got full-blown pin-up posters of her upon finishing the games.

Tim · Posts: 169

thatbox wrote:

Lestrade wrote:

For ULTIMATE TRUTH see the Japanese Zero Mission commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGq90yUttzs&search=japanese%20zero%20mission

I was disappointed when I saw New Sexy Samus, but also a little bit not. I mean, she is new and sexy.

Yeah, that is pretty blatant. I mean, that last shot is going right into her ass. So much innuendo! I guess they were trying to see how far they could take it.

Reminds me of this thing.

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

Baines wrote:

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

I think the problem is when male game developers simply don't bother to think about all of the people who might play their game.

They are thinking about most of the people who will play their game.

Right. That's my point. That's what I'm saying is the problem. They are thinking about most of the people who will play the game instead of all the people who might play their game.

thatbox · Posts: 816

Tim wrote:

Now I feel terrible for wanting that to have linked to a larger picture.

Talbain · Posts: 628

One must wonder why this thread exists, since the basic consensus is: Yes it's bad, but it's not going anywhere.

Lobst · Posts: 96

I think you're a little too jaded. I personally argued that it has its own natural place, and people should stop criticizing it if it's done right.

Zero Suit Samus is... a little out of place, I'd say, but only because of the way Nintendo is marketing her. I can just imagine Alex Albrecht turning to Kevin Rose and saying "Dude, have you SEEN Samus in this one? She is sooo hot! Curves everywhere, dude!", at which point they'd waste a minute and a half of audio buzzedly talking about whether "curves" means "fatness", followed by their personal preferences as far as a woman's body-fat ratio is concerned. (Spoiler: KILL YOURSELF)

Aside from that, it's no different from Snake or Raiden wearing a skintight sneaking suit -- and Snake is in Smash Brothers Brawl, isn't he?

Talbain · Posts: 628

Lobst wrote:

I think you're a little too jaded. I personally argued that it has its own natural place, and people should stop criticizing it if it's done right.

Aside from that, it's no different from Snake or Raiden wearing a skintight sneaking suit -- and Snake is in Smash Brothers Brawl, isn't he?

First, I am jaded (I like cynical more though). Secondly, how is it that exploitation can be done right? Isn't that like saying insider trading has its place if it's done right?

I don't see the argument for justifying exploitation. Sexuality is ok, but just having a character baring their breasts or wearing skin-tight clothing because some programmer needs a hard on isn't justification for either.

If sexuality has its place, it's certainly not in something like a fighting game, where the entire purpose of armor and weapons is functionality, not sexuality or comfort; yet it's obvious that the characters are the way they are because they're selling to a pre-defined audience.

As for Snake, a wet-suit is supposed to be skin-tight, and I believe that's what he's wearing. (I've only played MGS1 on the PSX and MGS2, so correct me if I'm wrong) Thus, it makes sense that his character is wearing something skin-tight, it's for combat purposes.

Also, if you want to jump into the future or into a fantasy setting, that's great, do whatever you want; after all, how the hell am I supposed to know what is "normal" in an imaginary world? But if you put it in the present day (or if it is intended as such - such as in a game like Soul Calibur, where the time is obviously intended to be 12th century Europe or thereabouts), it'd better actually seem like the environment you're in is potentially something you might see in real life given the scenario.

My gripe is not with games that can or at least try to create these settings, my gripe is with Tomb Raider, Dead or Alive, and Bloodrayne, and other games that spend time trying to "whore" characters in situations which there's no logical reason for them to whore themselves.

But even with this, it still goes back to: We all know this, it's not going to change.

Cycle · Posts: 1574

Chickplotation is fun!

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

thatbox wrote:

Tim wrote:

Now I feel terrible for wanting that to have linked to a larger picture.

http://wiki.theppn.org/images/f/f1/otsuka_love_jam_2.jpg

If you think this is bad, imagine getting this CD in the mail at work and having it sit on your desk all day starting at you.

Loolapaloozer · Posts: 209

Talbain wrote:

If sexuality has its place, it's certainly not in something like a fighting game, where the entire purpose of armor and weapons is functionality, not sexuality or comfort; yet it's obvious that the characters are the way they are because they're selling to a pre-defined audience.

That's right. I don't see anything wrong with Fear Effect, for example. I think the sexuality is, for the most time, clearly justificated. Dead or Alive is the opposite, from the very beginning.

dhex · Posts: 2963

dead or alive, however, is appropriate.

metroid is not.

Talbain · Posts: 628

dhex wrote:

dead or alive, however, is appropriate.

Because women would definitely fight in a forest wearing this.

Granted, DoA beach volleyball is actually an arguable case, after all, women generally wear swimsuits when they're at the beach and playing volleyball is something you do at the beach.

Scratchmonkey · Posts: 2229

I believe that the point was that Dead or Alive is about cheesecake, so cheesecake is appropriate.

As opposed to Metroid, where the game is actually about something else and the cheesecake is incidental and therefore less appropriate.

To get back to DOAX, I didn't have any problem with it until Team Ninja started yelping about how it wasn't supposed to be sexual in any way.

Talbain · Posts: 628

Scratchmonkey wrote:

I believe that the point was that Dead or Alive is about cheesecake, so cheesecake is appropriate.

I already made my argument about why this doesn't work - if you want to have women wearing skimpy clothes, fine, but put them in an environment that doesn't attempt to emulate the real world - as women fighting in skimpy clothes isn't something that happens in the real world.

If it's the real world that is being emulated, then I expect extraneous situations to be looked at as though they were in the real world. (Think Persona 2 - Eternal Punishment)

Scratchmonkey · Posts: 2229

What makes you think that the real world is what is being emulated? Here's a hint: it's not.

We're dealing with realms of fantasy here and that applies as much to the "fighting" as the skin-baring costumes. If we want to try and match up DoA against reality, we're going to be running into massive problems well before we get to the "do women fight in their underwear" aspect.

The "appropriateness" is not being measured against the real world, rather, it's being judged entirely within the context of the game.

Draxamus · Posts: 12

Bitches need to be exploited.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

GIRLS RUIN EVERYTHING

Talbain · Posts: 628

Scratchmonkey wrote:

What makes you think that the real world is what is being emulated? Here's a hint: it's not.

We're dealing with realms of fantasy here and that applies as much to the "fighting" as the skin-baring costumes. If we want to try and match up DoA against reality, we're going to be running into massive problems well before we get to the "do women fight in their underwear" aspect.

The "appropriateness" is not being measured against the real world, rather, it's being judged entirely within the context of the game.

And if the context of the game seems similar to real world situations, time periods, and locations, we're just supposed to assume it's all fantasy anyways and accept it? No.

Saying that it's within the "context" of the game doesn't suddenly make it acceptable. Even if you're arguing context, the context of women fighting in their underwear (or something damn clost to it) is ridiculous as it is, just as Lara exploring ruins in skimpy shirts and shorts is equally ridiculous.

Baines · Posts: 906

After all, you would never find women fighting in their underwear in movies, comics, anime, pro-wrestling, TV programs, pen&paper RPGs, action figures, or anything else.

And while the chainmail bikini may not be the most practical outfit for the stereotypical fantasy female warrior, neither is the fur loincloth for the male...

Talbain · Posts: 628

Baines wrote:

After all, you would never find women fighting in their underwear in movies, comics, anime, pro-wrestling, TV programs, pen&paper RPGs, or action figures.

Because everyone knows these are excellent indicators of reality.

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

I wasn't aware that DoA was trying to emulate reality.

Talbain · Posts: 628

ReroRero wrote:

I wasn't aware that DoA was trying to emulate reality.

Yes, because with human-like physicality, appearances and movement, the characters in DoA are exceptionally unlike reality. The environments which are all related to those that can be found in different parts of the world are exceptionally unlike reality. A scenario set-up with science as a dangerous tool is exceptionally unlike reality.

Yes, nothing at all in this game touches upon reality.

This will immediately lead to all people saying "well all games do that!" So I'll counter now, before the bitching begins, which it probably will anyway.

Yes, all games do that, but they do so with a premise that is unrelated to reality. Valkyrie Profile for example, has human-like characters, but they are set in fantastical situations. Persona has human-like characters, set in fantastical situations.

Metal Gear Solid however, has a character who is human-like and is also set in a human-like situation that might happen in the real world. The primary difference is that the character is also equipped - in terms of appearance, thought processes, abilities as well as actions and equipment - as a character might be in the real world. The characters in Dead or Alive are not, yet they exist in this world that is similar to one of reality. Thus, the pretense of a character doing something such as the DoA characters in the real world is unrealistic, given their scenario.

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

So a game which is based around a fighting tournament where characters can break limbs butstillk have the function of a working arm, throw each other off high places and still be alive on impact with the ground, life bars and has female characters that look like supermodels is trying to emulate reality?

Talbain · Posts: 628

ReroRero wrote:

So a game which is based around a fighting tournament where characters can break limbs butstillk have the function of a working arm, throw each other off high places and still be alive on impact with the ground, life bars and has female characters that look like supermodels is trying to emulate reality?

Ugh, and I thought I was splitting hairs. Anyways; a life bar is something that is related to all fighting games, the only one I haven't seen a life bar in is Bushido Blade, and it was probably one of the most enjoyable fighting games I've played. Also, breaking limbs (I don't know what the function of a working limb is in reference to - dislocating one maybe, but it's REALLY hard to break a limb, no matter how strong or trained you are) and falling off high places and surviving is not as uncommon as you might think. Of course, the places they fall off of aren't more than one story, as far as I'm aware, and most anyone can survive a 10 foot fall (I fell out of trees all the time when I was a kid, so I do have quite a bit of experience with this) and still be able to do most anything a normal person can do - and if these are "fighters" they'd be conditioned to take falls anyways.

As for female characters that look like supermodels, isn't that what we're arguing about in the first place?

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

I thought it was about games emulating reality.

Talbain · Posts: 628

ReroRero wrote:

I thought it was about games emulating reality.

It is. I've been arguing that if a realistic situation such as the one in DoA were to happen, supermodel females wouldn't be the ones doing the fighting, thus, while the game attempts to emulate a realistic situation in realistic settings, it fails to do so because it puts unrealistic characters in the realistic setting and situation created.

Krabjuice · Posts: 114

Lets tone this down a notch. From what I see, we could agree that DOA simulates a desired reality.