IC Forum Archive

klikbeep · Posts: 485

LINK!

I think this is seriously awesome news for all of you diehard 4-blockers out there (you know who you are! LOL!!) Seriously this is great news I heard there's a secret block you can unlock in this one

LW Joestar · Posts: 1358

klikbeep wrote:

I heard there's a secret block you can unlock in this one

Not possible!

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

Not with that attitude it isn't.

Monthenor · Posts: 455

Despite being swathed in moonspeak, that link makes me happy deep inside. Even though I know that no Tetris game will ever replace TI-85's ZTetris 3.0.

colour_thief · Posts: 116

Sorry for the long post guys but surprisingly few people know the depressing state of Tetris today. ITS STORY MUST BE TOLD.

The classic modes will be really nice. However, the new mode (not mentioned on the front page??) makes me very sad. It will feature SRS (Super Rotation System) rules instead of Sega rules. SRS "features" such wonderful bullshit as infinite spin. See also this famous video review of Tetris Worlds where the word 'broken' is uttered repeatedly over the course of 2 minutes.

Sega has a long history of making Tetris games. Tetris (for 3 different arcade platforms, as well as Mega Drive), Flashpoint, Bloxeed, and the NAOMI/Dreamcast Sega Tetris. These games use a distinctive rotation system that plays very well. Other Japanese companies followed Sega's lead, such as the Tetris Plus series of games. Most importantly, the TGM series (Tetris Grand Master) uses a slightly updated version of this rotation system. Sega rules are widely used because they work and people liked it.

Where does SRS come from? It's the brain child of Henk Rogers, the founder of BPS and official godfather of Tetris. Pajitnov moved on with life, whereas this guy (responsible for GB and Famicom Tetris, among many many others) has only become more obsessed with it. The rights to Tetris are complicated, but to keep it short all new games must be approved by TTC (The Tetris Company). Frankly, what this actually means is they must meet Henk Rogers' personal approval. Around the time Tetris Worlds was developed, Henk created SRS. It's not intuitive, it's not streamlined for fast play, and it removes all time pressure while playing.

So. This guy controls the rights to Tetris. He creates his own monstrosity of a rotation system. The next step? It is now mandatory for every game to use his game rules. Among other things this includes SRS, and a piece randomizer that often gives SZSZ. While Sega is the people's choice, SRS is tyrannically enforced.

How has this affected Tetris games? TGM3, released to arcades a year ago, was forced to adhere to the Tetris Guidelines. Fortunately, the developer was able to mitigate the damage by giving the player the option to choose between Sega and SRS styles, with each getting their own highscore tables. (The best players are using Sega rules, of course.) Last December, for the X360 launch in Japan, another TGM game was released. By this time, the Guidelines had grown more strict. This game was forced to use the frustrating SZSZ randomizer, and it also had no Sega rotations whatsoever. As a sneaky way of bypassing the Guidelines once again, the developer released a patch over XBOX Live that added Sega behaviour. However, only so much could be done, and the result is a frankenstein mix of SRS and Sega rules that has been largely ignored by TGM players.

TGM players are very proud of their Sega roots. And the series has to fight and do sneaky stunts to keep them alive. And now we get this Sega collection, and it just highlights the bleak future ahead. Henk Rogers is very irritated that all the best fan clones immitate this Sega style, and would love to see it fade away into obscurity. Will there be a TGM4? If there is, will it be worth playing? The creator of the TGM series, Ichiro Mihara, is ranked #2 in Tetris DS wifi right now (below another TGM player, of course). For chrissake, let the talented, inspired man create whatever Tetris he wants. :(

.
.
.

BONUS SAD STORY
The Rogers family has made millions from Tetris. What do they do in their spare time? Apparently, they troll the internet. Eddie Rogers (Henk's brother) has trolled many times on Japanese sites like 2ch and Mixi. He writes, to give a translation from the mouth of a Japanese TGM player:

<censored> Well, he didn't say "resistance is futile" literally, but keeps on comparing non-SRS rules to samurai hairstyles
<censored> I try to read them again in order to translate them but the mere act urges me to fire a vitriolic response and I need to restrain myself from doing that.
<censored> "You no longer see them in public outisde of TV", "If you want to keep your samurai haircut it's your choice", "I also play past Tetrises from time to time and it's fun but it keeps reminding me of how well made the standard rules are".....

etc etc followed by some creative name calling from TGM players. And if you doubt it's actually Eddie Rogers, I'm assured he writes inimmitably broken Japanese.

And lets not forget that series of emails Henk Rogers was personally sending out to every person who made a Tetris clone in the late 90s... I'm too lazy to fetch links for this, but don't worry, it's not worth reading.

colour_thief · Posts: 116

Red_venom · Posts: 338

LOL!!

Recap · Posts: 86

colour_thief wrote:

SRS "features" such wonderful bullshit as infinite spin.

So there you have why it wasn't mentioned on the front page. Great post, anyways.

Lestrade · Posts: 817

As soon as I saw "Tetris" I knew you'd be in here. I was going to ask your opinion of this news.

Tetris DS uses infinite spin, doesn't it? I remember "cheating" with it while trying to defend your ridiculous onslaught a couple of IC:TO meetings ago. I always prefered classic GB Tetris, which seems purer.

Colour_Thief: the f4t4l1ty of Tetris?

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

I've never been able to meet someone who is so passionate for a genre outside of fighters.

That was a wonderful read. I didn't know that the normal rules were called Sega rules, that just makes it an even better standard by name alone.

That infinite spin has soured me on Tetris, good thing I still have that GB cart around.

Monthenor · Posts: 455

Okay colour_thief, what's your opinion on ZTetris 3.0? It's why I can't play any of the modern Tetrii; ZTetris has clockwise and counter-clockwise rotation, an "inch down" button, and an instant-drop button. The randomizer seems biased to squares, but not overly so.

I find any Tetris without instant-drop is too slow, and clones with only one direction of rotation just seem lazy.

God hell yeah, I still remember when we found the instant-drop button in high school. I had been ripping up the rankings in our physics class, then I missed a day for Knowledge Bowl. When I came back next Monday I got ass-raped by all the guys who had been there on Friday when instant-drop was discovered. It was a whole new game after that.

Deets · Posts: 605

Monthenor wrote:

Okay colour_thief, what's your opinion on ZTetris 3.0? It's why I can't play any of the modern Tetrii; ZTetris has clockwise and counter-clockwise rotation, an "inch down" button, and an instant-drop button.

What "modern tetrii" have you played that don't have all of those features?

Persona-sama · Posts: 1145

Lestrade wrote:

As soon as I saw "Tetris" I knew you'd be in here. I was going to ask your opinion of this news.

Tetris DS uses infinite spin, doesn't it? I remember "cheating" with it while trying to defend your ridiculous onslaught a couple of IC:TO meetings ago. I always prefered classic GB Tetris, which seems purer.

Shit, yeah, I was really pissed that I couldn't play just the original GB/NES Tetris in this new fancy collection. I mean, at least offer me the original SONGS as a choice.

Shit, I was expecting something more like NEW Super Mario Bros instead of Tetris: Nintendo Splooge.

But RGBThief's explanation does explain a lot.and it is soooo filling

oneEIGHTkevin · Posts: 465

I think infinite spin works pretty good in multiplayer games and would actually rather have it there. But just for multiplayer Tetris. It does break normal games of Tetris from my experience with Tetris DS.

colour_thief · Posts: 116

Unfortunately I haven't played ZTetris, so I don't really have an opinion of it.

And Lestrade, infinite spin is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't so much break VS, because you need to play fast to win anyways. The main problem is that single player score attack is reduced to an exercise in patience.

The next ugliest part about SRS is what is called "T-Spin".

That move is perfectly valid with SRS. This isn't an issue in and of itself, because you could just ignore it, but get this... You receive more points for doing this than a Tetris! You send more garbage in VS too! Maybe they should rename the game T-Spin.

On the other side of the issue, here's an example of the sort of cool moves that are being killed off from TGM. A common move would be:
-Hold right to zoom to the wall.
-Press up to drop the piece (it will not lock!).
-Press left to move the piece over once.
-Press down to lock the piece.

To recap that's Right Up Left Down, or a 3/4 circle.

What is a seemingly complicated maneuver is actually a simple flick of the wrist with a joystick. And like fighter game players, TGM players tend to prefer using Sanwa joysticks, though we use a 4-Way guide to make life easier in our 4-directional game. TGM players have named these moves Zangi-Moves, because they are remniscent of Street Fighter's Zangief. They're used all the time, and are absolutely essential for a fast time attack.

(Keep in mind this gif is slow to demonstrate technique.)

So we lose time attack techniques and gain gimicky unnatural T-Spin Triples.

dark steve · Posts: 3002

You should be pitching this as an article somewhere. This stuff is actually kind of fascinating.

colour_thief · Posts: 116

I'd be lying if I said interviewing Henk Rogers for The Gamer's Quarter wasn't a secret desire of mine... Never thought it could actually happen though.

Monthenor · Posts: 455

Deets wrote:

Monthenor wrote:

Okay colour_thief, what's your opinion on ZTetris 3.0? It's why I can't play any of the modern Tetrii; ZTetris has clockwise and counter-clockwise rotation, an "inch down" button, and an instant-drop button.

What "modern tetrii" have you played that don't have all of those features?

I went on a quest a year ago to find a tetris game I could play on my laptop and/or PC. After downloading every ROM I could find and a bunch of freeware/shareware clones, I gave up ever finding one to replace my TI85. Most of the freeware tries to add in gimmick "enhancements".

The Tetris DS I tried out the other day was close, but not quite.

colour_thief, those gifs are hot.

Sub · Posts: 696

This is indeed fascinating! What are the C and H buttons for?

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

Indeed, who knew there was an arcade Tetris scene.

Let alone a Tetris arcade machine. I am suprised nobody has tried that here, it could actually work in the few arcades left in this country. I'd love to have this at the laundromat, even.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

Um..there isn't an arcade in Texas that doesn't have a tetris machine.

jiji · Posts: 780

They're common in Utah, too. Atari's Tetris is the one I've seen most often, but I've seen Sega Tetris around here and there.

I've never played those variations that will be on the Sega Ages package, but it's nice to see that that Megadrive version of Tetris will finally be getting an official release. (It was scheduled to come out in Japan until Nintendo wrangled the worldwide console distribution rights, but it leaked out in HK pirate carts eventually, without the Sega name, I think.)

colour_thief · Posts: 116

Sub wrote:

This is indeed fascinating! What are the C and H buttons for?

C and A are both counter clockwise rotation. If you want to rotate twice, you smack both buttons to do so in the blink of an eye.

H is for Holding a piece. You have 1 slot for holding a piece. When you press Hold it exchanges the active piece for whatever you have in the Hold slot. You can use this to do stuff like keep an I piece in reserve, or mix up the order of the incoming pieces to make your life easier.

Since people seem interested, I'll point out the TGM clone all the players train on. It's only for Windows, sadly. It's called Heboris and you can get it here. Now, this game has long stopped development. However, there is a 2ch community that has hacked it to bits, updating it with many more features. If you like Heboris, you'll want to grab the latest unofficial patch from here. Just extract that over your Heboris folder.

Or you could try and experience it vicariously by watching, say, this video.

Screwtape · Posts: 81

I agree with all these comments that colour_thief ought to write some kind of Tetris history/arcade scene article.

Also, I'm most familiar with things like Gameboy Tetris, Tetris DX, and whatever Tetris version was on N64. Obviously there's been an evolution of the rules over the years, but do any/all of those games use Sega Rules? What about Tengen Tetris, or the original DOS version? Is there some kind of family-tree of Tetrises?

Shapermc · Posts: 2450

colour_thief wrote:

Among other things this includes SRS, and a piece randomizer that often gives SZSZ. While Sega is the people's choice, SRS is tyrannically enforced.

You know, for the longest time I could not figure out what was so wrong about the Tetris for my cell phone. I finally came to the conclusion that the straight line block was give out at about the frequency of an award. I don't like that.

My wife actually plays a lot of tetris, and while not as good at it as the masters are, she does play Heboris quite a bit. She will be happy to find out about these patches. Also she keeps going back to New Tetris (or next tetris?) for the N64. The one where you can make gold and silver giant blocks. She is disgustingly good at that game. I have had people who brag about their Tetris skills (my frineds mind you) get their asses kicked by my wife. I haven't beaten her at tetris in about 4 years.

Note: she sucked all the fun out of Tetris for me :(

vision · Posts: 472

B coma · Posts: 1455

vision wrote:

that's absolutely pornographic.

colour_thief · Posts: 116

Sorry Vision, I play that game too.

Self propagating x19 with only 2 colours.

RedLightning · Posts: 154

Yeah, I think I gave up hope of ever being able to beat colour_thief at Tetris after that download-play match we did on Tetris DS.

Here's my own contribution to the pissing match (note: not actually that impressive, but looks cool):

colour_thief wrote:

BONUS SAD STORY
The Rogers family has made millions from Tetris. What do they do in their spare time? Apparently, they troll the internet. Eddie Rogers (Henk's brother) has trolled many times on Japanese sites like 2ch and Mixi. He writes, to give a translation from the mouth of a Japanese TGM player:

<censored> Well, he didn't say "resistance is futile" literally, but keeps on comparing non-SRS rules to samurai hairstyles
<censored> I try to read them again in order to translate them but the mere act urges me to fire a vitriolic response and I need to restrain myself from doing that.
<censored> "You no longer see them in public outisde of TV", "If you want to keep your samurai haircut it's your choice", "I also play past Tetrises from time to time and it's fun but it keeps reminding me of how well made the standard rules are".....

etc etc followed by some creative name calling from TGM players. And if you doubt it's actually Eddie Rogers, I'm assured he writes inimmitably broken Japanese.

And lets not forget that series of email Henk Rogers was personally sending out to every person who made a Tetris clone in the late 90s... I'm too lazy to fetch links for this, but don't worry, it's not worth reading.

Some very sick part of me wants to hunt down those threads and read them.

Cycle · Posts: 1574

Monthenor · Posts: 455

omg tetris everywhere fap fap fap

Nana Komatsu · Posts: 697

colour_thief in a really long post wrote wrote:

(more about tetris than I ever knew but was still extremely interesting)

POST OF THE WEEK

klikbeep · Posts: 485

Once I got *all* the people in the Russian band, including dancers.

Westacular · Posts: 571

colour_thief wrote:

Or you could try and experience it vicariously by watching, say, this video.

The thing that gets me about that video is that the player can't possibly be looking at the playfield. It's just too fast; he needs to keep his eye almost always on the "preview" and must simply know where each piece should go.

And then the pieces turn all black, so he can't rely on colours to aid that instant-decision process. Wow.

SignOfZeta · Posts: 46

So who do I blame for Tetris S?

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

Looks like the unofficial patch is missing, that's too bad. I was hoping to try this at the office. Did anyone manage to nab it before it was axed?

Nobody is working except for me this holiday weekend. :(

Hoping to get others hooked on a good Tetris...

Lestrade · Posts: 817

colour_thief wrote:

I'd be lying if I said interviewing Henk Rogers for The Gamer's Quarter wasn't a secret desire of mine... Never thought it could actually happen though.

Never mind Henk Rogers, we should interview you! I had no idea you could do these sorts of things.*

* EDIT: ...with my heart.

aerisdead · Posts: 556

Color Thief, you're fucking awsome.

Also, I know this is cruel to bring up, but do you like the Atari Tetris? I was actually offered an Arcade cab of it recently (for free) that I couldn't take and didn't think about it more than once (it needed pick up, my flat is small, etc.) so I *really* hope you didn't actually want it.

RedLightning · Posts: 154

Pijaibros wrote:

Looks like the unofficial patch is missing, that's too bad. I was hoping to try this at the office. Did anyone manage to nab it before it was axed?

Nobody is working except for me this holiday weekend. :(

Hoping to get others hooked on a good Tetris...

Looks like it was only updated, or something.

RedLightning · Posts: 154

I figure this is sort of an appropriate place to post this all things considered.

Here's insertcredit's colour_thief playing Tetris DS one-on-one with Empire Arcadia's head honcho Triforce Game Master.

I stopped recording when we were asked to move, because, well, I think the point had been made at that point. ;)

Westacular · Posts: 571

That's really one-sided. Why'd they keep going for so many rounds when after the first two or three the situation had become abundantly clear?

I assume it's colour_thief's screen that the video is watching?

dongle · Posts: 236

Heh, that's rough. I would have quit long ago.