IC Forum Archive

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

zelda classic is a legend of zelda emulator for windows (the next release will supposedly be linux- and osx-compatible). in addition to running the first and second quests of the original zelda (with either original or satellavue-style sprites), zelda classic includes a robust editor for creating original games that use the zelda "engine".

(no coding involved, either!)

DID YOU KNOW: the dev town forum was originally conceived as a collaborative project in which every participant contributed a single dungeon to a unified zelda game. well now the legend returns.

PROPOSAL: the ic zelda quest is passed from person to person, each of whom contributes one dungeon and the surrounding overworld screens. zquest, zelda classic's editor, is quite robust--things from later zelda games like the hookshot and hammer have been implemented--but my recommendation is that we stick to things that would have been possible in the original game, to challenge ourselves to commit to solid design. i also recommend we stick with the original zelda's sprites and music!

this is the PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION segment of the project, so feel free to make suggestions, ask questions, fiddle with zquest and zelda classic games. i'll try to put up my own half-finished zelda quest so y'all can tinker with it in the editor.

and please indicate your level of DOWN-NESS with this enterprise!

ADDENDUM: the official zquest tutorial, courtesy the internet archive! you'll have to hilight the text to read it.

GRAND LIST OF PARTICIPANTS (SO FAR):
Mister Toups - wooden sword
dessageega
dizzyjosh
ReroRero - boomerang
Cycle
Baron Patsy MAYBE
Persona-Sama
GrimSweeper - power bracelet
Monthenor
interguardian - silver arrows
Scratchmonkey
the drunken samurai
Slyphglitch
shnozlak - raft
decinoge - magic shield
L - ladder
the blueberry hill - magic boomerang

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

Could we use the original sprites but recolour them?

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

What Rero said. As long as we keep any new graphics in character, there should be no problem. Right?

I have time for this!

I tried to do a similar thing along time ago, with a Zelda engine I built in RPG Maker 2000. I was pretty crap!

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

i find that limitation fosters invention, but it's certainly an option!

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

Blue Elf is way cooler than Green Elf, if we make Link blue they this project will already have 'cool' points.

Red Wizard is cooler than Blue Elf but that's too much of a sprite change.

aderack · Posts: 5018

Yeah. Zelda Classic is pretty great. I almost started playing with its editing tools a while ago. Got distracted, though.

Hmm! This has promise.

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

dessgeega wrote:

i find that limitation fosters invention, but it's certainly an option!

Yes, yes: everyone finds that. Hence the limitations!

Thinking about it... why the fuck would we need to make new sprites? Apart from a Blue Link. Nopt much apart from tweaking some of the dungeon tiles, I'd imagine.

But yeas, the fun here comes from playing with the assets of the original.

Persona-sama · Posts: 1145

So will this replace the other project we were going to do?

I'm totally down for this. Also, I have a suggestion for another game thing we could do too. I have to research it more before I make an official post though.

Monthenor · Posts: 455

I am 97% down with this. Although I will probably end up making a dungeon too pretentious for even IC which involves eating one of those shutter-doors.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Okay, I'm in. And I'll actually do this shit on time this time.

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

I'll check this out, fo' sho'. Me and Docock were talking about just using Flash to make the game (cause GameMaker and Multimedia Fusion are both Windows only), but this might work too!

B coma · Posts: 1455

This seems like a solid idea. Since we are passing this from person to person, are we going to also pass on a short document that we each update with information regarding added stuff? I like the idea of us each doing a dungeon, given that LoZ does not depend much at al on the level linearity, but how would the overworld be handled?

I just downloaded ZQuest and it is indeed pretty easy to use, which is good because the internet archived tutorial only goes so far...

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

I'm down with this. The Zombie vs. Mummy hand-around sort of dissolved after Toups finished (I can't remember who was supposed to go next so I'll blame him) and I need something to fill that void.

BEIGE · Posts: 208

I would like to get down with the sickness.

B coma · Posts: 1455

Here's another tutorial for those who'll need it (me):

http://happyman.purezc.com/uzqt/index.php?page=p1

luvcraft · Posts: 693

I'd only be down with this project if it used an original IP.

So, additional Zelda levels I'm not interested in, but "The Legend of Dessgeega" with remarkably similar mechanics I would be interested in.

Another consideration for a Zelda-style game with each collaborator contributing a dungeon is the fact that Zelda dungeons tend to each require the use of the items found in the previous dungeons. Two possible solutions to this problem are:

1. Decide beforehand on the order of the dungeons, and which item is in which dungeon.

2. Make all of the dungeons beatable with the starting equipment (plus whatever item you get in that dungeon), but have shortcuts, enemy weaknesses, and other considerations for the items in the other dungeons, a'la Megaman.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

luvcraft wrote:

2. Make all of the dungeons beatable with the starting equipment (plus whatever item you get in that dungeon), but have shortcuts, enemy weaknesses, and other considerations for the items in the other dungeons, a'la Megaman.

How about instead we design the dungeons however we went with whatever items in mind, the only requirement being that the dungeon's treasure must be accessible without any other items?

Or we just edit as we go along?

Persona-sama · Posts: 1145

Mister Toups wrote:

luvcraft wrote:

2. Make all of the dungeons beatable with the starting equipment (plus whatever item you get in that dungeon), but have shortcuts, enemy weaknesses, and other considerations for the items in the other dungeons, a'la Megaman.

How about instead we design the dungeons however we went with whatever items in mind, the only requirement being that the dungeon's treasure must be accessible without any other items?

Or we just edit as we go along?

We could do both - since we're working off each other, a person could make use of whatever was in the previous person's dungeon if they want, or make it accessible with just the standard items alone.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

ooh! alternatively we could have the item upgrades cleverly hidden throughout the map instead of in dungeons, circumventing the problem altogether!

That may make the game really difficult though.

shnozlak · Posts: 704

In one week I will be free enught to dig into this. That is if its okay with yall.

Question. Can you create a dungeon on your own and then impement it into the group file when its your turn or will each person need to have "ownership" for the period that they are building?

vision · Posts: 472

The overworld could be little more than one screen with X (clear and hidden) cave/stairwell entrances.

Perhaps in the 1st dungeon you get the bomb, which opens the path (in the overworld) to the second dungeon. Etc.

A minimalist approach, to be sure, but I don't think it will be easy to organize an overworld with several people semi-blindly designing interconnecting screens.

Krabjuice · Posts: 114

Question: How many of you want this to become a web-based game. Multiplayer, perhaps? With enough motivation and incentive, I could produce a decent java applet to run content that IC produces. All we would need is a server.

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

luvcraft wrote:

So, additional Zelda levels I'm not interested in, but "The Legend of Dessgeega" with remarkably similar mechanics I would be interested in.

we could conceivably hack the link sprite into that of a chubby little geekdyke if that would help? the fact that we use the same engine is important, not just because not everyone participating is a coder, but because this is about design, and everyone more or less knows what the legend of zelda's mechanics are capable of.

besides, you can do an awful lot with what zquest gives you. i need to find a place to host my half-finished game.

we can make it so that each dungeon includes one treasure, and if we pass the game from person to person, each participant will know what's been added to the game already and be able to make a decision about how those treasures are implemented into the new dungeon. for example, rooms with water can be cleared without a ladder, but the ladder would make it easier. the dungeon order in the original game isn't totally nonlinear - you need the raft to reach the fourth labyrinth - but the triforce pieces can be collected in any order.

i think the overworld would best be handled by each person creating one dungeon and one portion of the overworld (that contains that dungeon) with the requisite shops, pay-for-my-doors, etc. or else one or two people could handle the mighty task of unifying all the dungeons into an overworld at the end of the project.

i think a web-based or multiplayer game is a good project for the future, but the important thing about this project is it is simple. anyone can create a dungeon in zquest. completing simple projects is more important than planning ambitious projects, right now. ic does too much of the latter and not enough of the former.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Yeah, though it would be tempting, I think we should avoid creating any new content for the time being. I see this as a design excersize first and foremost and we don't want to get bogged down with having to create art assets and all that.

Of course, feel free to have the old wise man say whatever stupid things you want.

internisus · Posts: 961

shnozlak wrote:

In one week I will be free enught to dig into this. That is if its okay with yall.

Question. Can you create a dungeon on your own and then impement it into the group file when its your turn or will each person need to have "ownership" for the period that they are building?

Yeah, I was envisioning this as something where each designer would build off of those who have come before. More like an album than a compilation.

luvcraft · Posts: 693

I looked at the engine, and I'm out for this one, but I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. Good luck!

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

internisus wrote:

shnozlak wrote:

In one week I will be free enught to dig into this. That is if its okay with yall.

Question. Can you create a dungeon on your own and then impement it into the group file when its your turn or will each person need to have "ownership" for the period that they are building?

Yeah, I was envisioning this as something where each designer would build off of those who have come before. More like an album than a compilation.

Actually, as far as I understand it you can import individual dungeons. So I figure we'll send the "master file" around in a set order but if anyone wants to start working on their dunegeon ahead of time they can.

Krabjuice · Posts: 114

dessgeega wrote:

i think a web-based or multiplayer game is a good project for the future, but the important thing about this project is it is simple. anyone can create a dungeon in zquest. completing simple projects is more important than planning ambitious projects, right now. ic does too much of the latter and not enough of the former.

Quite true. However, I mentioned this with the intent to carry this burden myself. It is possible that I can create an engine capable of utilizing the resources that this project is currently thinking of. Thus, it is all a matter of swapping data.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Krabjuice wrote:

dessgeega wrote:

i think a web-based or multiplayer game is a good project for the future, but the important thing about this project is it is simple. anyone can create a dungeon in zquest. completing simple projects is more important than planning ambitious projects, right now. ic does too much of the latter and not enough of the former.

Quite true. However, I mentioned this with the intent to carry this burden myself. It is possible that I can create an engine capable of utilizing the resources that this project is currently thinking of. Thus, it is all a matter of swapping data.

Yeah, but moving a very very single player experience like Zelda changes the design mandates so much that I think it would be worth saving for another day. We all already understand how Zelda single player should play so it's a lot easier to jump in and start making the levels. Trying to design them with online gameplay in mind is maybe asking a bit much.

I mean yes, it would be cool, but let's take things one step at a time.

prayingmantis · Posts: 10

This engine looks pretty neat. I would join if I weren't so busy with my projects. God, I should've listened to myself when I said I shouldn't have more than 2 projects at the same time. This looks like an awesome engine to make a top-down survival horror!

dizzyjosh · Posts: 87

guys, i'm so in.

mind you i'm no good at puzzles but i'd really like to try.

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

it's okay! it's mostly about pacing!

let's start getting a list together! anyone who intends to participate in some form of this, give a shout or exclamation!

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

EXCLAMATION!

Cycle · Posts: 1574

dizzyjosh · Posts: 87

digging around the zquest site i found a link to a .zipped version of the alphadawg tutorial, which should be image- and page-complete.

temporarily, i'm hosting it via yousendit at: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8B71D5C049DC9788

that'll only be good for 7 days or 100 downloads, so maybe someone with a real server could pick up the slack later?

also, i'm having trouble figuring out how to edit my damn combos in this thing. but i got a working cave up and going so alright!

edited to check for replies

Baron Patsy · Posts: 573

i might try this

no promises, but put me down as a "maybe" or "probably"

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

dizzyjosh wrote:

that'll only be good for 7 days or 100 downloads, so maybe someone with a real server could pick up the slack later?

i'll put it up when i upload my incomplete quest. which is whenever my website finally gets back online grr.

(LIST RELOCATED UPWARDLY)

this would be a good time for everyone to tinker with tutorials, if you aren't already!

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

Should we allow each participant to define their own palette?

Persona-sama · Posts: 1145

Don't forget me, guys. ;__;

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

GrimSweeper wrote:

I'm down with this. The Zombie vs. Mummy hand-around sort of dissolved after Toups finished (I can't remember who was supposed to go next so I'll blame him) and I need something to fill that void.

Cycle · Posts: 1574

How much time would we have to do this? I have a bunch of deadlines due this week, but I'm pretty much free for awhile after that.

Monthenor · Posts: 455

My worst scheduling conflicts this summer are done on Friday.

SHOUT OUT!!

internisus · Posts: 961

ReroRero wrote:

Should we allow each participant to define their own palette?

I think no, but I'm not in charge. My feeling is that this should lead to a coherent finished product.

I want in (!). I'll play with the program this weekend and see what it's like.

We need to talk more about how much one person's designs should build from predecessors', because I don't know how comfortable I am with starting to make my own dungeon before I know where the player would be coming from.

Also, great idea: this zquest thing only for Metal Gear!

Scratchmonkey · Posts: 2229

Put me in the hat!

The box!

The hat!

the drunken samurai · Posts: 4645

yeah im in,waht i was working on is pretty much dead anyway

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

internisus wrote:

ReroRero wrote:

Should we allow each participant to define their own palette?

I think no, but I'm not in charge. My feeling is that this should lead to a coherent finished product.

We need to talk more about how much one person's designs should build from predecessors', because I don't know how comfortable I am with starting to make my own dungeon before I know where the player would be coming from.

well, i think we can agree to go in order, each person receiving everything that's been done so far.

i don't think we should do any palette-editing. part of this challenge is to work with what you have.

internisus · Posts: 961

In that case, what kind of time restrictions will each person on the dev chain have?

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

dessgeega wrote:

internisus wrote:

ReroRero wrote:

Should we allow each participant to define their own palette?

I think no, but I'm not in charge. My feeling is that this should lead to a coherent finished product.

We need to talk more about how much one person's designs should build from predecessors', because I don't know how comfortable I am with starting to make my own dungeon before I know where the player would be coming from.

well, i think we can agree to go in order, each person receiving everything that's been done so far.

i don't think we should do any palette-editing. part of this challenge is to work with what you have.

You know, I actually think we could be rather non-linear about doing the order for this, at least in the sense that it seems things are pretty modular with this program. We could pass along a master file that contained chunks of the overworld and finished dungeons, and everyone could have access to it but only one person could edit that one, and everyone else could be working on their dungeons in the meantime. and then whoever feels closest to finishing next can claim the overworld file?

internisus · Posts: 961

But then the dungeons would have no relevance to one another, and you would run into problems like the item/weapon set available to the player at any given dungeon being a complete unknown.

dizzyjosh · Posts: 87

we do need some kind of hierarchy and central filing for (ack) version control.

we should also probably set some limits on like, amount of overworld space you can take up. it doesn't need to be so hard that a good idea gets ignored, but this will help give focus. maybe like 6-12 screens for the area surrounding a dungeon?

do we want to divide overworld sequences up differently? i was planning on doing some more overworld-type adventure stuff.

internisus wrote:

But then the dungeons would have no relevance to one another, and you would run into problems like the item/weapon set available to the player at any given dungeon being a complete unknown.

i think avoiding this is half of the game of making this game; that's *our* puzzle. i guess the first person to do something gets to set the trendzzzz