IC Forum Archive

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

I.. I... I wanted a boomerang.

My Zelda-a-like game is going to be entirely boomerang based.

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

there are two boomerangs!

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

also no lens of truth! even if it wasn't beyond the bounds of this project, it introduces the magic meter, and that's not something we want to deal with.

shnozlak and GrimSweeper, commence e-duel for the raft!

(maybe one of you wants the ladder instead?)

L · Posts: 145

No magic-meter items? Okay, guess I've have to switch to the Magical Key, then.

Decinoge · Posts: 129

i dont care, magic shield is mine >_< :P

its just a shield anyway, and i need some important thing to justify the last hiden room. beyond simple rupys -_-

anyway i'm having a problem in here... i can make a dungeon item room... i can make the passage to it, i can get in it... i can pick up the item... but i CANT GET THE FUCKING OUT >.<.... can anyone help me on this one? :\

[edit] - the problem is that link doesn't go all the way up >_< the stairs >_<

shnozlak · Posts: 704

dessgeega wrote:

also no lens of truth! even if it wasn't beyond the bounds of this project, it introduces the magic meter, and that's not something we want to deal with.

shnozlak and GrimSweeper, commence e-duel for the raft!

(maybe one of you wants the ladder instead?)

hmm well looking back at my level design it could in fact work just fine with the ladder once a few adjustments were made (stepping stones). BUT I put up the raft claim first! And I have a certain love of the creepyness of under ground water. Do you have a level designed yet Grimmysweeps? Could you put up with the ladder?

I want my raft!

Ill try to bang something of a level out tomarrow....

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

Actually, I haven't touched the editor yet. *shame*

So your prior claim is in effect, darn it all. I suppose I could make do with a ladder. It's not like I had an inkling of what I planned to do with other items and the raft was really to have a underground safari of monsters in a look but don't kill sort of way.

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

GrimSweeper wrote:

the raft was really to have a underground safari of monsters in a look but don't kill sort of way.

i wholeheartedly support this idea.

GrimSweeper, you'll always have the raft in my heart.

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

It would be still possible, if my dungeon was after schnozlak's dungeon. Then, I could make do with something other than a ladder. The possibilities are interesting.

Or he could steal the idea from me and create his version of a zoo. Either way, it gets put in the game.

internisus · Posts: 961

Are we doing the Master Sword? I like the Master Sword. It's important.

I also like Silver Arrows instead maybe.

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

internisus wrote:

Are we doing the Master Sword? I like the Master Sword. It's important.

not really.

Decinoge · Posts: 129

kay babes...

HERE is my dungeon... the Undead Kingdom.

i cant pass it, thats a fact, but i always sucked at zelda, and i still suck at playing games. and probably the items are not the best for it... however, the _"MAGIC SHIELD"_ (not mirror) shop its inside the dungeon... so... deal with it. the hardest of the the dungeon is realy the enemies... i have no problem with anyone changing the thing. but u have to maintain the enemie type (the ghosts, the skeletons, the knights, the bats)

i advise everyone who plays this to go thru the screens on the overworld to pick the heart containers.

and that guy on the first room... its suposed to be Mah Toups Babay.

(i wanted to put zelda and make it dess... but i thought she would hate to be a curly hair blond bitch)

anyway dessy, could u upload that somewhere safe?

and anyone can change the file to.. combine better with the rest.

L · Posts: 145

Y'know, I was just fiddling with ZQuest today, and I just happened to formulate a dungeon concept that would be extremely augmented if the Stepladder was its key item. (Here's a cryptic clue: it involves other ladders.) May I have it instead of the Bracelet?

(EDIT: Mr. GrimSweeper, I understand you were willing to renege the ladder if your dungeon was placed after the Raft's?)

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

Decinoge wrote:

anyway dessy, could u upload that somewhere safe?

yes.

try to make your dungeon with freeform dungeons off, because if you turn it on it will create more work for everyone, including people who want to make traditional dungeons.

and L, if you want the stepladder, you're going to have to talk to GrimSweeper, who has already claimed it. consider doing a dungeon that is meant to be played after the ladder has been collected - have a moat in the first room to indicate this to the player.

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

I renege on the ladder. If the power bracelet moves blocks like I think it does, I will take that instead.

Decinoge · Posts: 129

dessgeega wrote:

try to make your dungeon with freeform dungeons off, because if you turn it on it will create more work for everyone, including people who want to make traditional dungeons.

how.. do i do that?...

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

it defaults to off, hon.

Decinoge · Posts: 129

i'm not understanding shyt... awnser to this questions:

was that "freeform dungeon off" thing for me?

HOW do i turn it off? (like, menu description)

and where have i went wrong?

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

what the huh? i know someone mentioned freeform dungeons.

anyway, that wasn't directed at you, Deci. it was directed at . . . someone.

Decinoge · Posts: 129

oh, coolness... so... i'm done here aint i? dungeon done.. coolness done...
do u want me to do the world map aswell?
err... the "undead" part of the world map... like.. the whole kingdom..... or something....

shnozlak · Posts: 704

GrimSweeper wrote:

It would be still possible, if my dungeon was after schnozlak's dungeon. Then, I could make do with something other than a ladder. The possibilities are interesting.

Or he could steal the idea from me and create his version of a zoo. Either way, it gets put in the game.

If you want to make a zoo Id gladly make it a hidden (or not so hidden) portion of my own creation. If you like.

Oh and today was suprisingly busy. I havent even started making my dungeon yet. Arrrr. Hopefully soon...

Monthenor · Posts: 455

My "Old Temple" is coming along nicely, after I quashed an error this morning that turned all my dungeon floor tiles into stairs.

The editor is still pissing me off, but I am learning that it's no good to fight against its horrible interface. One can only master it.

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

So are we doing this in a set order or is everyone working separately and at the end everything will be merged into one file?

Monthenor · Posts: 455

Pol Temple is ready to go. I only did one overworld screen which could be linked in pretty much anywhere, and the initial inventory is my recommendation for tackling the dungeon.

It contains the magic book and one heart container.

I'm not going to play other people's dungeons until they all get collated, I don't want to spoil anything.

L · Posts: 145

I found the Pol Temple to be quite pleasant (though I couldn't find the heart container), except for a few bugs. Namely, the "dark" rooms didn't darken the floor tiles as they should, and the door that was blocked by shrubs had a blank wall on the other side (instead of a one-way shutter). Also, those places where the shrubs were intruding into the temple looked messy - methinks you'll need custom-drawn tiles before you can get away with that.

Did you use any customised combos?

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

Grimsweeper, that safari idea would make a great location. I don't know what to call it: a side-dungeon, a flavour-dungeon. No items or anything to find, just a real neato place to discover. Make sure it's hard to find.

Rero, which boomerang were you after?

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

I'll just take the regular one. I suppose having a boomerang doesn't matter, I just wanted to claim an item that isn't needed so I can have a little dungeon on the side that is entirely optional. If you want a boomerang that badly I'll just fill my dungeon with a few hearts or something.

Baines · Posts: 906

ReroRero wrote:

If you want a boomerang that badly I'll just fill my dungeon with a few hearts or something.

A heart container dungeon could be interesting. If dessgeega didn't mind, you could put three or four heart containers in it, and require different items to reach each of them (but not requiring the player be able to reach one heart container before he can reach the next.) It could be a dungeon that the player repeatedly returns to as he gains new equipment to get past the obstacles.

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

That's a good idea, but would require major changes to what I've already done and am happy with right now. It sounds like the kind of dungeon that should be at the centre of the world with each part pointing towards the direction where the needed item can be found.

L · Posts: 145

ReroRero · Posts: 2148

Which is why it will be hidden inside my dungeon, which will be a hidden dungeon somewhere which I might also make hidden. You might require the ladder and something else, maybe the Power Bracelet as well to get through my dungeon which I might fill with bitch hard enemies because I am a total cunt who likes to make people work for their suffering.

Cycle · Posts: 1574

asdf

I finally have time to have a go at this. I'll fool around with it tomorrow and see what item I want!

Monthenor · Posts: 455

L wrote:

Namely, the "dark" rooms didn't darken the floor tiles as they should,

And I have no idea why not. I'm using Combo 47:CSet 9 for all my floor tiles, but only the "under combo" ones go dark properly. I tried to work around it by only using darkness in rooms with busted walls...tried to make it look like sunlight was streaming in from outside.

L wrote:

and the door that was blocked by shrubs had a blank wall on the other side (instead of a one-way shutter)

One-way shutter! That's a much better idea. (Version 2 link)

L wrote:

Also, those places where the shrubs were intruding into the temple looked messy - methinks you'll need custom-drawn tiles before you can get away with that.

Messy is kind of the point, but I agree that it doesn't look as good broken walls should. The default Zelda tileset is lacking in unadorned corner pieces.

L wrote:

Did you use any customised combos?

Not that I know of, but like you said none of my floor tiles darken properly. I'd love to know why. The fanciest I got (on purpose) was some wand-fire flags.

And then there was the time where all my floor tiles turned into stairs. In my eager haste to make an appearing-secret-staircase, I had set the "Next" property for Combo 47 to a stair. Oops.

EDIT: Another thing I found out was that secret passages don't play well with dark rooms. Dark rooms will be lighted when you come out of a stair, and when entering a stair from a dark room the passage behaves...oddly. It looks normal, but throwing out fire will "light" it and change the colors to dungeon-theme colors.

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

I started daydreaming about a basic background story today...

Almost before history there was a single tribe. As they expanded, and explored they split into 7 (er... there are 7 triforce bits, right). Over time they each developed their own cultures / identities, but still remained linked to each other. And they also each had a bit of the triforce, yeah I forgot to mention that, they each took a bit with them (it was split in some grand ceremony) when it was obvious that the original tribe had become seven, to remind them off their shared past.

This was a great age of beauty and peace. As more time passed the tribes moved further away from each other, grew more isolated, more suspicious of the others.

Then one day one of the triforce bits was nicked, and the victimed tribe accused one of its neighbours (probably Harold) war broke out between the tribes, most were involved, plenty of side switheroos, maybe some try to stay out, but eventually all were left in ruins, survivors flea to new shores.

I think that helps explain the lovely awkwardness that may accure when all this is stuck togather.

and then some hero bloke/blokette has to go get all the triforce bits for some very very important reason.

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

the blueberry hill wrote:

(er... there are 7 triforce bits, right)

eight, it was recently pointed out to me.

L · Posts: 145

I say, I say:

* Nobody's explicitly chosen any of the Triforce Pieces yet! (I can only imagine that Mister Toups and GrimSweeper and shnozlak have implicitly chosen...)
* Remember that fellow who offers you a choice of a heart container or a red potion? Well, suppose we replaced the red potion with something like... the Long Bow. Or the Hammer. (The former makes your arrows faster, and the latter smashes Darknut shields.)

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

we're going to be sticking to items from the first game, so no hammer, no long bow.

sorry!

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

Does it have to have Gannon? I never noticed the bore until Ocarina Of Time.

Also, I'm taking one of the Triforce pieces.

L · Posts: 145

Decinoge · Posts: 129

finaly... i was needing someone to test this cause i suck at zelda... i'll see into it, however... yes, i made it on purpose to make alot of misleading clues, to confuse the player... specialy that 3 key part in the bigining... u cant actualy get stuck in that part, however, u can verry well proceed without getting the map and the compass... wich... sucks... but thats how i intented (u either use one key to continue the dungeon, or use it to continue to get the compass and the map)

Baines · Posts: 906

A couple of things to think about:

For those that are making tricky dungeons when it comes to keys and one-way passages, remember that players generally can leave dungeons at almost any time.

In particular, remember that they can pick up a key from your dungeon, use that key in another dungeon, then return to your dungeon. Basically, if you've got a design that cuts a player off from the entrance unless they have a key, you may want to make sure the key is in that section (past the cut-off point,) else you could end up with the player trapped.

(It wasn't game breaking on the NES version, as saving and reloading got you out. I don't know how ZQuest handles it though, and it is a bit of a frustration.)

L wrote:

A "design tip" given by the ZQuest forum is not to make the boomerangs available very early in the game. It has a habit of easyifying all of the enemies that are susceptible to it. So I suggest that you hide your boomerang well.

Something to consider as well is that people that make game hacks often tend to think the original games are too easy. Most hacks that aren't just graphical are generally to make a game harder, regardless of how hard it was originally.

Just something to think about when you hear difficulty advice from such a source... Is it really a bad thing that the boomerang makes things easier? How hard do you want your game to be, and what aspects do you want that difficulty to come from? Are you trying to make an alternative experience, or are you trying to make an "improved" experience? (In quotes for a reason...)

dessgeega · Posts: 3317

it is worth remembering that it's easier to make a hard game than an easy one.

shnozlak · Posts: 704

Thanks for the protips, though I'd say the editor puts out a really acurate version of the game. Its kinda like how step mania compares to DDR.

So how many people besides me are still hammering away at this?

Also, 2 things

1)How do you make it so killing the enemies will open the shutters?

2)Can I effect heart/rupee dropping by enemies?

Maybe im missing something, but I cant find either of these in the guide.

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

I've got the basic dungeon design down, along with a list of overworld and underworld creatures to slot into the safari routes. All I need is a segway to my "hidden" item, hiding the optional part of the dungeon (probably the most dangerous part too, which is why it doesn't HAVE to be done), playtest the raft to see if it can go past doors without having to land which would be AWESOME if it did but merely something to bypass if it didn't, and making it look pretty.

It's merely a matter of getting motivated to do it. If there were more people working on something, I would definitely not want to be left behind.

EDIT: Okies, I fiddled around with the raft paths and found that they stop dead at passageways, even if the path continues onward from there. Hence, the creation of little islands at each point of entry! Which is a good thing/bad thing: good because if I had followed my original plan, the raft would not have stopped; bad since it gives enemies a slim chance of spawning in the way instead of in their 'cages'.

Also, my original plan called for being able to access all cages from behind the scenes, so if somebody felt like it they could waltz in and slaughter the exhibits. I definitely don't have the space for something like that, however. It means I have to be more creative. And something just struck me as a decent replacement. I might just have enough space to put something that gets the player used to the idea, then have the "boss" path use it.

L · Posts: 145

GrimSweeper wrote:

bad since it gives enemies a slim chance of spawning in the way instead of in their 'cages'.

You can control enemy placement by using Enemy flags 1-10 (in the Tools->Flags menu item), you know.

My own dungeon is progressing well, albeit slowly. Its entire concept involves what can only be described as a "gimmick", which I shall not reveal until completion.

Baines · Posts: 906

L wrote:

(It wasn't game breaking on the NES version, as saving and reloading got you out. I don't know how ZQuest handles it though, and it is a bit of a frustration.)

Also, in the NES version the first shop at the start of the game sold small keys for 100 rupees each.

That wasn't really the issue I meant though.

Rather that with the right room design, incautious use of keys could trap you inside the dungeon.

Imagine

the blueberry hill · Posts: 458

L wrote:

Does it have to have Gannon? I never noticed the bore until Ocarina Of Time.

Ahem... Ganon. Boar.

Ahem... Half that was a joke, half that is unintended example.

Anyway, I finally get a chance to really sit down with this tonight. I have a rough plan in my head, we'll see what happens.

I downloaded some quests from the website too. A Metroid one (The one that doesn't have Bobba Fett (Spelling L?)) and... er... Dinius, something, maybe. It looks pretty!
What are the good ones to check out, for fun, and/or for interesting design?

L · Posts: 145

Baines wrote:

L wrote:

(It wasn't game breaking on the NES version, as saving and reloading got you out. I don't know how ZQuest handles it though, and it is a bit of a frustration.)

Also, in the NES version the first shop at the start of the game sold small keys for 100 rupees each.

That wasn't really the issue I meant though.

Rather that with the right room design, incautious use of keys could trap you inside the dungeon.

Imagine

:

+---+ +---+
| K |LL| | K = key
+---+ +---+ L= locked door
| |
+---+ +---+
| E |O-| | E = entrance
+---+ +---+ O = one-way passage

The example you give is not so much a problem with keys and doors but a problem with one-way shutters and one-way passages. Sealing a player in an areal, when the means of escape is not guaranteed, denotes bad design. And, as you say, for the most part you cannot guarantee that the player ever has even one key at any time.

[quote=the blueberry hill]I downloaded some quests from the website too. A Metroid one (The one that doesn't have Bobba Fett (Spelling L?)) and... er... Dinius, something, maybe. It looks pretty!
What are the good ones to check out, for fun, and/or for interesting design?[/quote]Apart from the pre-packaged quests, I've only gotten around to playing The Hidden Duality, which succeeds in more closely resembling A Link to the Past than Zelda 1.

shnozlak · Posts: 704

GrimSweeper wrote:

I've got the basic dungeon design down, along with a list of overworld and underworld creatures to slot into the safari routes. All I need is a segway to my "hidden" item, hiding the optional part of the dungeon (probably the most dangerous part too, which is why it doesn't HAVE to be done), playtest the raft to see if it can go past doors without having to land which would be AWESOME if it did but merely something to bypass if it didn't, and making it look pretty.

It's merely a matter of getting motivated to do it. If there were more people working on something, I would definitely not want to be left behind.

EDIT: Okies, I fiddled around with the raft paths and found that they stop dead at passageways, even if the path continues onward from there. Hence, the creation of little islands at each point of entry! Which is a good thing/bad thing: good because if I had followed my original plan, the raft would not have stopped; bad since it gives enemies a slim chance of spawning in the way instead of in their 'cages'.

Also, my original plan called for being able to access all cages from behind the scenes, so if somebody felt like it they could waltz in and slaughter the exhibits. I definitely don't have the space for something like that, however. It means I have to be more creative. And something just struck me as a decent replacement. I might just have enough space to put something that gets the player used to the idea, then have the "boss" path use it.

Idea: make it a hole
Set the door type as type 'walk through' and put a 'hole' into the wall where the door was. Use the rough edged 'shallow water' tiles to make the hole look more hole like a hole. Set a dock on either side of the hole so that it seems more coninuous.

EDIT: the raft instance is still going to be destroyed when you go t oa new screen. It just looks better than islands with doors. I think.

GrimSweeper · Posts: 530

I'll try that with a screen or two. I might run into the problem that cropped up with the first version of the islands in front of doors; the raft path isn't recognized as a starting point if it's directly in front of the door. I'm not completely pressed for space yet, fortunately.

Also, L: I never even thought of the flags. I was suspicious of something controlling the spawns when tooling around with the original quest, but it never occurred to me to glance at the different flags when I was using them for raft paths. Much appreciated! :)

EDIT: Unfortunately, shnozlak, your nice idea didn't work. :/

It's something to do with the tiles directly next to the door. The flag doesn't register when the player is attempting to go from there. I could make the journey one way, however...which I might implement because the overall water safari is small enough: 2x3.

As for the other exhibit path, I'm thinking of making it a footpath for part of it. I might have to modify how people are getting to my spot (it's accessible only by raft at the moment), so if they stumble on it early they have a glimpse of what's there; get the froth going, etc. But I like my original design.