IC Forum Archive

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

So the beta for Microsoft's game making utility, XNA has been released.

Download Links:
-XNA beta (91.2MB)
-Visual C# (required to run XNA) (2.8 MB installer)

I'm downloading it at the moment! Has anyone tried using it yet? Does it suck? Is it useful? Is it jangly? Is it... shiny?

Mr. Business · Posts: 1530

C#? Blagh! What a weird choice. Hope you enjoy weird object oriented programming languages. Though things like automated garbage collection sound sort of nice. Isn't C# an interpreted language though? That's bound to create some nasty bottleneck down the road.

Also, I thought that we had to pay $99 bucks per year to use the XNA.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

No, only if you want to put the games on your Xbox.

And uh, only after the final version comes out. I'm... pretty sure that the beta is PC-only.

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

C# isn't interpreted. It's basically Microsoft Java. It's a good language.

It runs on the CLR, which is pretty much a virtual machine, and code is dynamically compiled as needed by the Just-In-Time Complier. Bottlenecks? Indeed. You won't be coding your very own Dead Rising with this thing. For quick homebrew games it's perfect, however.

Mr. Business · Posts: 1530

DaleNixon wrote:

C# isn't interpreted. It's basically Microsoft Java. It's a good language.

Ain't Java an interpreted language as well? It definitely has one more layer between it and the hardware than C does. Virtual Machine? Interpreter? Seems like the same difference to me, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding.

edit: yes, right you are. There does seem to be a difference. I'll have to study this. Either way, I still hate high-level language bureaucracy, so the use of C# still sounds pretty iffy to me. Hell, the phrase "Microsoft Java" makes me feel more than a bit uncomfortable.

Right you are though, for homebrewish stuff, it could be quite fine. I wonder what the upper limits are for game quality using XNA.

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

An interpreted language would allow you to change the code during program execution and see your changes in real time. C# and Java do not work this way.

C#.NET is weird in that it is compiled for a target machine (the Common Language Runtime), but, as the code executes in the CLR, it is compiled into native code for whatever architecture you are using (x86, ppc, etc) on the fly. This Just-In-Time compiling only happens to functions as they are needed. The implication here is that a .NET Framework application can run on any platform (Windows on x86, NTWhateverthehell on PPC for the 360) without any changes to the code.

Takashi · Posts: 820

Mr. Business wrote:

I wonder what the upper limits are for game quality using XNA.

I think they are way beyond what a < 10 team can ever produce on a reasonable schedule.

Sadly, I'll not be coding on this anytime soon - albeit I have a particular idea XNA would be perfect for.

LegatoB · Posts: 1546

You know you're off to a lovely start when your cross-platform development kit's demo program only supports the Xbox 360 gamepad. And, apparently, only the 360 gamepad.

God damn it, MS.

Mr. Business · Posts: 1530

Well, to be fair, it is made specifically for the XB360, and it is Microsoft, so it's not as though this move is an unpredictable one. I'd be surprised if that was the ONLY gotcha in the whole deal, really.

Maybe they'll find a way to make certain aspects of the devkit usable only in Vista.

ecchi · Posts: 148

The tutorial teaches you how to change the key associations.

The Garagegames guys were saying they were getting upwards of 80% the speed of their C++ implementations. Main problem, apparently, is doing a lot of mallocs each frame as the garbage collector slows things down, or something. I'm not knowledgable enough to understand completely.

C# is basically Microsoft Java, but it was designed to be sort of a streamlined combination of many languages that uses their strengths and eliminates their weaknesses.

LegatoB · Posts: 1546

Yeah, I found the semi-hidden "use keyboard" option shortly after making that post. I still think it's a poor showing in the PC beta to not make keyboard more prominently featured, and hopefully it is in fact possible to add support for gamepads that aren't 360 ones, or else the "cross-platform" part of the equation will become rather pointless.

Takashi · Posts: 820

ecchi wrote:

C# is basically Microsoft Java, but it was designed to be sort of a streamlined combination of many languages that uses their strengths and eliminates their weaknesses.

C# is basically Microsoft Java, but they couldn't use Java since Sun and Microsoft hate each other in the way only large coorporations know how to. Because there was, once, a Microsoft Java.

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

DaleNixon wrote:

An interpreted language would allow you to change the code during program execution and see your changes in real time. C# and Java do not work this way.

C#.NET is weird in that it is compiled for a target machine (the Common Language Runtime), but, as the code executes in the CLR, it is compiled into native code for whatever architecture you are using (x86, ppc, etc) on the fly. This Just-In-Time compiling only happens to functions as they are needed. The implication here is that a .NET Framework application can run on any platform (Windows on x86, NTWhateverthehell on PPC for the 360) without any changes to the code.

CLR bytecodes could be considered an interpreted language.

C# is dynamically compiled into CLR bytecodes at runtime.

Take that as you will!

ecchi · Posts: 148

LegatoB wrote:

Yeah, I found the semi-hidden "use keyboard" option shortly after making that post. I still think it's a poor showing in the PC beta to not make keyboard more prominently featured, and hopefully it is in fact possible to add support for gamepads that aren't 360 ones, or else the "cross-platform" part of the equation will become rather pointless.

From what I hear now, XNA uses "XInput" rather than DirectInput. Right now, the 360 controller is the one one with proper drivers for that. With Vista it should become more prevalent.

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

DaleNixon wrote:

An interpreted language would allow you to change the code during program execution and see your changes in real time. C# and Java do not work this way.

C#.NET is weird in that it is compiled for a target machine (the Common Language Runtime), but, as the code executes in the CLR, it is compiled into native code for whatever architecture you are using (x86, ppc, etc) on the fly. This Just-In-Time compiling only happens to functions as they are needed. The implication here is that a .NET Framework application can run on any platform (Windows on x86, NTWhateverthehell on PPC for the 360) without any changes to the code.

CLR bytecodes could be considered an interpreted language.

C# is dynamically compiled into CLR bytecodes at runtime.

Take that as you will!

I think they call it an "Intermediate" language.

So anyway, how do I get this working with a wireless controller using the charge n' play kit? Is that just not possible? Do I have to buy a wired controller?

LegatoB · Posts: 1546

ecchi wrote:

Vista

:|

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

DaleNixon wrote:

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

DaleNixon wrote:

An interpreted language would allow you to change the code during program execution and see your changes in real time. C# and Java do not work this way.

C#.NET is weird in that it is compiled for a target machine (the Common Language Runtime), but, as the code executes in the CLR, it is compiled into native code for whatever architecture you are using (x86, ppc, etc) on the fly. This Just-In-Time compiling only happens to functions as they are needed. The implication here is that a .NET Framework application can run on any platform (Windows on x86, NTWhateverthehell on PPC for the 360) without any changes to the code.

CLR bytecodes could be considered an interpreted language.

C# is dynamically compiled into CLR bytecodes at runtime.

Take that as you will!

I think they call it an "Intermediate" language.

So anyway, how do I get this working with a wireless controller using the charge n' play kit? Is that just not possible? Do I have to buy a wired controller?

As far as I understand you just plug the usb into your computer?

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The USB connector on the charge kit is only used to draw power from the usb port. It doesn't pass controller input.

I went ahead and bought a wired controller. You never know when a 3rd controller will come in handy anyway.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

I hear fuzion frenzy 2 is coming out soon!

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

Oh you.

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

I made a game with this thing in like an hour. It's really not that good, but you can check it out here.

Here's the readme:

CatAndMouse first release.

* Use the right mouse button to start a game.
* The only input in this game is taken from the left mouse button.
* Your goal is to avoid the cat for as long as possible. The mouse will move around erratically because it is extremely scared. Use the left mouse button to restrict his vertical movement.
* Your survival time will be displayed when you get caught by the cat.
* Please don't tell me this game sucks, it was brute-force coded in less than an hour.

Known bugs:

* When starting a new game, the game behaves as if the left mouse button is pressed even when it isn't. Clicking the mouse button will fix this problem, but you will probably be eaten by the cat.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Hey John do you want to help me program exciting games for the xbox360?

Also man Mondo is one unforgiving bastard :(

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

Toups I would be down with that but let me get my head wrapped around this stuff a little better first. I've never done any game programming before.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Yeah man, no worries no hurries aight.

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

Oh hell my CatAndMouse game requires a dll that I didn't include. It will only work for people who have the XNA studio installed. Sorry dudes :( I'll remedy this later.

Update: it really can't be remedied with this Beta 1. You either have the XNA studio installed or you can't play games made with it. Oh well.

luvcraft · Posts: 693

LegatoB wrote:

You know you're off to a lovely start when your cross-platform development kit's demo program only supports the Xbox 360 gamepad. And, apparently, only the 360 gamepad.

God damn it, MS.

Correction: only an XBox360 WIRED controller.

Although, now that you have one, you can play In the Pit.

Microsoft says that they're releasing an adaptor to let you use your wireless 360 controller with Windows sometime in November.

another god · Posts: 1629

http://makeitbigingames.com/blog/?p=34

DaleNixon · Posts: 766

That was an interesting read. I am curious as to how hard it would be for "some random guy" to get a game distributed on XBLA.

another god · Posts: 1629

It'd be hard as hell for "some random guy" to get game distribution on XBLA. You'd have to build up credibility in the indie ring and then distributors would back you with cash.