IC Forum Archive

cdoty · Posts: 9

Hi, I just found about this forum.

A while back I read about Tose, the 'stealth' development company; i wonder if an indie group could do something like this? I think it's possible, and the group would probably have to release a few small freeware games for a number of console systems. In addition, the group would probably have to do a few under-paid ports to get the name out.

Anyone else ever considered something like this?

Takashi · Posts: 820

Hey, Charles Doty! Glad to see you're still giving hell on the classic platforms.

Well, albeit I would love to work as a ninja developer-for-hire, I don't really follow your statement thru. Care to be more explicit?

cdoty · Posts: 9

Thanks for the comments.

I am interested in hearing from people who have formed a group like Tose, or people that might be interested in dicussing the creation of a group.

The 'secret' to Tose's success seems to be the number of developers that they have available to work on software. This would seem like an ideal situation for a large group of indie developers. Each indie developer could participate in an available project, in his/her spare time.

oligophagy · Posts: 110

you're trying to rouse an indie dev army in half a dozen sentences? this sounds like orginizational hell and backwards of indie. and how is this not already encompassed (even if not presently realized) by open source culture? if you cite an intragame alliance among developers, i say if open developers wanted a more permenant relationship, they'd damn well do it themselves. if cite a lack of unified creative direction, i say you'd need pretty fucking wide renown to get the internet dwelling, spare-time hobbyist to build your pyramids.

maybe i'm way off the mark, but then maybe you need to write and write more to pull this kind of thing off. this is the internet; you need to become a goddamned hero to face a faceless crowd and have them heed your beck and call. you need to make me love you.

cdoty · Posts: 9

I'm interested in getting people talking about the possibility. I don't know where to start. Maybe someone else has a better idea, or better some experience.

It would require a group of people that are passionate about this, and shouldn't take any motivation from anyone. Of course, if 100 people show an interest, only 10-20 (guess) would actually participate in the project.

Open source is probably a good model, but it would require more commitment. An open source project doesn't have deadlines, a commercial project would. In exchange for accepting the deadline, people could get paid to do what they love.

Organization similar what may be needed can be seen in Unreal mod projects, such as Red Orchestra (now a commercial comapny).

oligophagy · Posts: 110

cdoty wrote:

It would require a group of people that are passionate about this, and shouldn't take any motivation from anyone.

this is what i don't follow; what does the group actually do? tose develops intellectual property for other companies. is this what the group'll do, freelance develop games? how is this not a company with real employees, etc.? how is it indie?

cdoty · Posts: 9

oligophagy wrote:

this is what i don't follow; what does the group actually do? tose develops intellectual property for other companies. is this what the group'll do, freelance develop games? how is this not a company with real employees, etc.? how is it indie?

Indie developers is just an approach to the situation. An artist/coder with some extra time could work on a project. The indie developer doesn't have to quit his day job to work on a commercial game, and the group has a pool of people to handle projects. It would be very hard for a new development team to get projects, and very risky to hire people full time.

The only upfront commitment from a developer would be assisting in creating some free demos. These demos could also be used as resume example work.

oligophagy · Posts: 110

okay, but how do you determine pay for someone's spare time? i can't see any way this wouldn't be a second job.

furthermore, commercial games are big commitments. you can't just bring in or swap out developers (or modelers or designers) whenever you please. if you don't have people signing contracts, making legal obligations, you risk projects dying when the main dev drops out (crunch time on her first job maybe?). and being so unconventional, just once might ruin you.

but all this infrastructure is pretty much what indie isn't. say what you mean: you want to found a company like tose but a hundredth the size. it will have real employees employed in real jobs, but maybe a part of every game's assets will be open to freelancers (the 'indie dev') bridged through the internet. the freelancer gets experience and resume building, the burden of game making is distributed over a wider base, and creativity is caught in the wild (comparatively speaking).

that sounds admirable, actually.

oligophagy · Posts: 110

cdoty wrote:

I'm interested in getting people talking about the possibility. I don't know where to start. Maybe someone else has a better idea, or better some experience.

double-post-aside-from-way-back (pedanticXX):

developing ideas in writing is hard. it is work. you can't just throw down a discussion topic and nothing else and expect anyone to dig deep inside and mine gold. as a forum, this is supposed to be an exchange of ideas; give then take.

cdoty · Posts: 9

oligophagy wrote:

okay, but how do you determine pay for someone's spare time? i can't see any way this wouldn't be a second job.

I'm not sure how any of this would work. It was proposed as a discussion topic.

oligophagy wrote:

furthermore, commercial games are big commitments. you can't just bring in or swap out developers (or modelers or designers) whenever you please. if you don't have people signing contracts, making legal obligations, you risk projects dying when the main dev drops out (crunch time on her first job maybe?). and being so unconventional, just once might ruin you.

Agreed, it would definately need a core group. It is becoming common for development companies to outsource artwork creation, etc. How is this any different? Wideload Games developed Stubbs the Zombie using mostly outside contractors.

oligophagy wrote:

but all this infrastructure is pretty much what indie isn't. say what you mean: you want to found a company like tose but a hundredth the size.

It would be a group with a dedicated core, and trusted contractors. And, each completed project adds to the group, improvements to the 3D engine or graphics tools aid in the next project. A lot of the interaction issues (resource check ins, code submission, etc.) would be addressed in the initial demos.

Too many companies are started with the expectation that a comapny will fund their over-ambitious 'Final Fantasy' beating game idea. The aim of the group would be a bit more realistic. Much of the proof that the work could be done would already exist in demos. The money required to fund the initial two or three projects (ports) would be less than an established company. Although the group wouldn't have a commercial track record, it could show what it is capable of.

aderack · Posts: 5018

Paging Mr. Sheffield.

oligophagy · Posts: 110

cdoty wrote:

It would be a group with a dedicated core, and trusted contractors. . . . Although the group wouldn't have a commercial track record, it could show what it is capable of.

could you flesh out the distribution here? if the core is full time employees, how many? what is a trusted contractor? what might i need to become one? really just help on demos? what long term commitment do i have?

then: would these be the only two levels? how little could a person contribute? i imagine the artist is harder to pin down; even a dozen-so good textures would have real utility. similarly on music and levels and models. hell, especially so if you're spiraling up a central engine.

i could dig it if the budget game market (the walmart store shelf) started sprouting a handful of thoughtfully constructed titles here and there.

exodus · Posts: 385

Hey charles - I've been to your house! With good ole R.W. Bivins.

Anyway, I think one thing to read up on is Wideload's business model, which is somewhat along the lines of what oligophagy is asking about.

check it out here: http://gamasutra.com/features/20060811/seropian_01.shtml

That's a postmortem of the game they made, but includes their business model, which is basically - have a core group of lead-level people in each area, then freelance/contract to known quantities in order to get things done.

The Tose model is more like have a HUGE group of developers, have them develop games, or parts of games, but don't give them credit. This means security for the developers, but also denies them the ability to really move on to great things with as much ease as, say a Capcom designer.

Tose is essentially an outsource group - come to them if you're having trouble finishing up your game. And that does have a certain kind of appeal in the indie space, especially with your skills, which are pretty console-agnostic, so far as I know. However, I don't think it'd be wise to take the ninja route. I think saying 'we'll complete/realize your game idea' is an interesting proposition, because it'd allow you to help along a bunch of indie developers who would potentially get into the industry properly later.

But it depends on what your ambitions are. Do you want to make a studio that makes full games, or one that helps people complete their projects? I think compensation would be one of the large problems, especially in the indie space. If you're talking about doing it just for fun, as like a group of developers-for-hire (as it were, since it'd be free) that would be kind of interesting - somewhat like a US-based doujin circle.

Anyway, interested in further discussion on this.

[edit]
argh, didn't see cdoty's last thing there. It seems you're definitely on the same wavelength as Alex Seropian in that postmortem - I missed a lot in that last post!

I do think it's viable, and I would be interested in something like that myself. I think you need to have a core group of very solid people, and the rest should theoretically come to you...

cdoty · Posts: 9

oligophagy wrote:

could you flesh out the distribution here? if the core is full time employees, how many? what is a trusted contractor? what might i need to become one? really just help on demos? what long term commitment do i have?

I think that would depend on the number of quality people you could find from the start. I think the goal would be to retain the people that add great value to the team, also taking into consideration the number of people the company could financially support. The goal would be to recruit quality people from the indie ranks, to accomidate more projects.

oligophagy wrote:

then: would these be the only two levels? how little could a person contribute? i imagine the artist is harder to pin down; even a dozen-so good textures would have real utility. similarly on music and levels and models. hell, especially so if you're spiraling up a central engine.

If someone only contributes one model, then they aren't helping the team. I would find the people that have contributed the most to the demos (to start with). They have demonstrated an ability to work within the group and are familiar with the tools and source code. I would them pick the 'trusted' contractors from the rest, based on their contributions and willingness to commit (contractually or otherwise as needed).

oligophagy wrote:

i could dig it if the budget game market (the walmart store shelf) started sprouting a handful of thoughtfully constructed titles here and there.

I've considered this market, but keep reading the horror stories about contract and payment problems. Assuming these could be addressed, that would be an ideal market to start in.

cdoty · Posts: 9

exodus wrote:

Hey charles - I've been to your house! With good ole R.W. Bivins.

I haven't heard from R.W in a while. What is he up to?

exodus wrote:

Anyway, I think one thing to read up on is Wideload's business model, which is somewhat along the lines of what oligophagy is asking about.

check it out here: http://gamasutra.com/features/20060811/seropian_01.shtml

That's a postmortem of the game they made, but includes their business model, which is basically - have a core group of lead-level people in each area, then freelance/contract to known quantities in order to get things done.

That was the first company to come to mind.

exodus wrote:

The Tose model is more like have a HUGE group of developers, have them develop games, or parts of games, but don't give them credit. This means security for the developers, but also denies them the ability to really move on to great things with as much ease as, say a Capcom designer.

I think the Wideload method could grow to the Tose method by bringing in the best contractors. It would have to be balanced by the financial strength of the company and work load. The article on Tose states that they are well known within the development community. I'm sure other companies are aware of Tose.

exodus wrote:

But it depends on what your ambitions are. Do you want to make a studio that makes full games, or one that helps people complete their projects? I think compensation would be one of the large problems, especially in the indie space.

Tose does what it takes to survive, which is very important in the current game development world. It seems like every other day a company is going out of business (even previously well established developers). In a lot of cases all it takes is one flop, and a company goes under. Too many companies get locked into a routine, and can't do something new.

Tose shields itself from this type of problem by doing whatever is needed. They do some design work, some porting work, localization, modelling, etc. For a company with a decent track record, I would think there is always porting work available.

Once the company is established, indie compensation shouldn't be too difficult, the project needs to be broken down into smaller chunks of coding or on a per model/level basis. The core team would have to set the expected coding convention or artwork style. It would have to be clear to the contractor what will and will not be accepted. That would make it easier to switch to another contractor, if they couldn't perform the job. After 2 or 3 development cycles, a list of 'trusted' contractors would exist.

exodus wrote:

If you're talking about doing it just for fun, as like a group of developers-for-hire (as it were, since it'd be free) that would be kind of interesting - somewhat like a US-based doujin circle.

That would probably be the ideal way to start. I'm not too sure how common place this is in the industry. Ironically, it's very common in the business development side.

exodus wrote:

Anyway, interested in further discussion on this.

I do think it's viable, and I would be interested in something like that myself. I think you need to have a core group of very solid people, and the rest should theoretically come to you...

I agree. I think it would be obvious when someone is found that would be a great addition to the team. And, they would've had to prove themselves to the team before being brought on.

cdoty · Posts: 9

I wonder how Tose structures the company to increase retention? I'm assuming the shorter development cycles help. It's always exciting starting a new project, and wouldn't wear thin as quickly on a shorter project. I assume the product design is prepared before starting work, and should be fairly fixed, since the contracting company would need to sign off on it before work starts. The only big issue would be the disputes over licensed character's appearance, motions, etc.

exodus · Posts: 385

well, I can ask them, but I think they are partially considered a launchpad, as they do have on the job training - but I assume they have a quick promotion program to grab these people before they decide to wander.

One of my questions with the indie idea is, well...indie folks aren't usually centralized, and indeed, that would almost definitely have to be the case here. One of the most important roles, then, would be the producer/manager, who would have to make sure these guys deliver, which can be incredibly difficult, given people would mostly be doing this on the side.

That said, I don't think it's impossible. I do think it would be pretty trying at first, but once the kinks were worked out, it could be pretty interesting, especially since (on the flipside of the concern I just stated) it wouldn't be bound by location. So we could have people in thailand or singapore or wherever, so long as they spoke english well.

I think your idea about the excitement of new projects is probably true as well - it's fun to have your hand in a lot of different projects. Retaining people would be really difficult without compensation though, because the structure would of necessity be pretty loose - it's impossible to force people do put their lives aside without the threat of pay/salary over their head. Could work with the right people and the right projects though.

And while I take your point about companies folding every day, companies are starting up just as fast.

In my mind, the most important things to come up with would be:

-team structure

-payment tiers (for the company)

-payment method (within the company)

- hard deliverable dates on a per-project basis

and most importantly people who really know what they're capable of, and who will be realistic about the time they have to offer.

Oh and I'm pretty sure the free development model is pretty uncommon. It's one of those situations where you feel like the service is only worth what you pay for it.

cdoty · Posts: 9

exodus wrote:

One of the most important roles, then, would be the producer/manager, who would have to make sure these guys deliver, which can be incredibly difficult, given people would mostly be doing this on the side.

That's where breaking the task down into smaller chunks helps. They can be compensated quicker for smaller pieces. Or, they can be eliminated quickly if they aren't working out.

exodus wrote:

So we could have people in thailand or singapore or wherever, so long as they spoke english well.

This would be a big advantage in producing games for different regions.

exodus wrote:

Retaining people would be really difficult without compensation though, because the structure would of necessity be pretty loose - it's impossible to force people do put their lives aside without the threat of pay/salary over their head. Could work with the right people and the right projects though.

The only period that wouldn't be compensated, is the initial demos to establish the company. After that they are either contractors, payed in small chunks or the core team, payed a salary or other prearranged payment.

exodus wrote:

-team structure

-payment tiers (for the company)

-payment method (within the company)

- hard deliverable dates on a per-project basis

and most importantly people who really know what they're capable of, and who will be realistic about the time they have to offer.

Oh and I'm pretty sure the free development model is pretty uncommon. It's one of those situations where you feel like the service is only worth what you pay for it.

Reading the Stubbs post-mortem shed light on some of this:

The Wideload team seemed like it worked better with fairly flat structure. Working remotely would add some problems to this, but the interaction is still possible through IM or e-mail. A lot of their problem came from managing outside contractors.

I also liked that Wideload allowed for an extended development at a lower cost. This gave the contracting company the option to choose a more expensive development budget, or a more flexible delivery date.

The free development period would only be used to establish the team. Hopefully people would understand they are working towards getting a project and establishing the team. One of Wideload's recommended changes was to require contractors to submit a test resource. The test resource would be required to be worked until it was compatible with the engine, and had a matching art style. The test resource would help eliminate a few incompetent contractors, and would serve as an example for the company financing the project.