IC Forum Archive

108 · Posts: 2600

Shadow of the Colossus reviewed.

Somebody move this to the writing forum?

BlackThought · Posts: 86

Nintendodragon · Posts: 259

Colossal

BlackThought · Posts: 86

Indeed.

108 · Posts: 2600

ho-ho! where did you take that?

hey, if you're ever up in proper tokyo, let's play jump superstars some time.

i've gotten pretty good at it.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

It should've covered the entire facade. Then it would be...TITANIC!

Tim, you write so purty.

Ashura · Posts: 735

I think this is the first time I've ever read one of Tim's reviews and it made me want to try the game out.

You know, as opposed to reading them just for the funny.

+10 points for the Starmen.

P.S.: Did I do the black text on a black background thing right? I'm cool enough to do that now, I think. Maybe?

108 · Posts: 2600

Did somebody link this review? I notice we had like 30 users on the forums a minute ago. Might we have had a slightly-medium-sized linking somewhere?

If you came here from an external link, let me know where you came from!!

I get all curious about stuff like this!!

And yeah, I've been using the Starmen since the Jak II review. I use them in the reviews on largeprimenumbers.com, too! No one seems to notice. They're Japanese font stars; aderack made them into Starmen by cutting eyes, I reckon.

Ashura · Posts: 735

108 wrote:

And yeah, I've been using the Starmen since the Jak II review. I use them in the reviews on largeprimenumbers.com, too! No one seems to notice. They're Japanese font stars; aderack made them into Starmen by cutting eyes, I reckon.

Yeah! I thought they might be the regular old Japanese font stars at first, but was curious if they were actually images. I then noticed the black pixels which formed the eyes upon closer inspection (IE: putting my face really close to the screen.) and I was like 'how diabolical!' Only I didn't say that.

EDIT: Also, is that commercial you mention in the review on the internet anywhere? Well, if it truly exists.

Axelay · Posts: 195

Sorry for being horribly off topic, but if anyone else watches "Lost" here, has anyone else noticed that:

"4 8 15 16 23 42" = 108 when added up?

I think Tim knows something...

Wilkes · Posts: 1603

Does tim (possibly you) read his own website's forum?

I think I'm the only one who posts there still. Hell, I started there.

I will name myself king of that forum if someone doesn't stop me.

...

Actually, I'm too scared to. Forget it.

dococtorock · Posts: 319

Tim, that was great. Especially when you got into the personalities of Ueda and Miyamoto and the others... very funny bits about hamsters and baseball dads... About the Zelda connection, I felt exactly how you described, that Colossus is a reimagining of the first Zelda, or an alternate universe sequel to the original Zelda.

I'm surprised, though, that you didn't talk more about the landscape, which is so conspicuously empty. That's one of Ueda's gutsiest decisions. Wouldn't that have fit in with "design by subtraction?"

Anyone have that picture of Miyamoto and Aonuma at e3?

newave · Posts: 616

dococtorock wrote:

Anyone have that picture of Miyamoto and Aonuma at e3?

I;m not sure if Tim was referencing me in the article but i did mention awhile ago how I saw Miyamoto in sonys booth watching people play Shadow fo the Colossus...unfortunately I was playing the demo while he was there so my only pic is quite shitty....

me playing the demo:

me trying desperately to take a picture of the Nintedo entourage in Sonys booth:

ipslore · Posts: 262

Yeah. There's much to say about Shadow, so:

The comparisons to Zelda are not just intentional, but probably inevitable; You've got a (mostly) silent protagonist on a horse, with a bow and arrow. In the earlier Zelda games, though, the environment was overwhelmingly hostile; here, it isn't. The scenery alternates between hostile-by-default-not-by-malice desert, and pleasant, almost tranquil forest.

Each colossus is, in itself, a microcosm of the game. Many times over, you get a feeling of dread, followed by a distinct sense of relief when you latch on to an improbable hold.

The heads-up display actually offers you three weapons, although I can't figure out what the fist is for; he draws his sword whenever you try to punch.

Just some random thoughts. It really is a great game.

professor_scissors · Posts: 1033

So when do we get a SotC unreview?

108 · Posts: 2600

ipslore wrote:

The heads-up display actually offers you three weapons, although I can't figure out what the fist is for; he draws his sword whenever you try to punch.

Ueda on the "punch":

"It's kind of silly to have your character running around with his weapon drawn all the time. If this were a real situation, he'd put the sword away every once in a while. The player needs to be able to put the sword away at will. He doesn't punch because -- well, would it do anything? He doesn't look like the kind of guy to punch."

There you go!

wourme · Posts: 101

I discovered that you can also pat the horse when you have no weapon drawn. And another thing I did accidentally that really surprised me (a very minor spoiler, if one at all): I was swimming in a little lake with some fish, and I grabbed the fin of one of them and it towed me around underwater.

Anyway, I enjoyed the review.

the drunken samurai · Posts: 4645

awesome review,makes me wanna steal that damn thing.

but first i gotta get my ps2 fixed:(

GigaMach · Posts: 285

One of the best, most readable reviews you've produced. Well done. I can't wait to play this game.

And Ambulance versus Zombie needs to come out here. So I don't have to mod my PS2.

chompers po pable · Posts: 325

Great piece of writing tim.

I agree about the beginning narrative being a bit too explanatory.

Also, more climbable mountains? No? okay.

dococtorock · Posts: 319

Tim, any chance of sharing the extended interview transcript?

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

dococtorock wrote:

Tim, any chance of sharing the extended interview transcript?

Yeah, pretty please? With sugar?

108 · Posts: 2600

I am the extended interview transcript, boys.

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

108 wrote:

I'm sure you all know that I work for Sony Computer Entertainment International, right?

Yeah, you've mentioned it. Speaking of which, just what is your job title, as in what do you do there? It sounds like a dream job almost, talking to game developers, being "on the inside" as it were. Are you a secretary or something?

Also you shouldn't worry about people taking offense at things you say or do. People take offense at anything. I don't really see anything about you that I would find offensive, if taken in stride and not too seriously.

Persona-sama · Posts: 1145

Wow, the Japanese font for the game is like something out of old anime and Miyazaki movies. It's totally appropriate.

Shadow of the Collosus is the first game I've seen that have made a group of otherwise videogame-antipathetic people scream and shout and otherwise totally enjoy. At my school the animators are given little cubicles to work in. I work in a cube that's located in a bungalow outside of the main building and it's pretty packed with odd fellows. A week ago one of the students brought in his PS2 and hooked it up to one of the pencil testers to show off Shadow of the Collosus to everyone. Now it's becomes a semi nightly thing for everyone to take turns trying to kill the collosi. We all sit on a small sofa or on the linoleum floor around a small tv, watching and shouting as the hero climbs the collosi and stabs it in the head, shooting out oil-like blood.

Some of the funnier comments I've heard:
"HOLY SHIT, did you fucking SEE THAT?!"
"HOLY SHIT, how the hell am I supposed to fucking kill THAT?!"
"This is the most work I've EVER done to get laid!"

The animation in the game is damn gorgeous too. Did you see the way that horse moves? It moves like a REAL HORSE. That really wowed me. When I first got on the horse and (tried to) turn around, I totally expected the horse to do a videogame-y glitch-like spin, like a mannequin on a spinning pedestal. When the horse actually leaned around and sidestepped a bit to turn around... it was good.

It's a gorgeous game!

Also, Shinji Mikami, Hideo Kojima, Gouichi Suda, and Fumito Ueda are all totally a part of an elite video game anti-terrorist force: THE SONS OF MIYAMOTO. Can't you already see their individual quirky comic book hero traits?

stabo10 · Posts: 47

Hey Tim, just wanted to pop in to say that I really enjoyed this review of Ico.

108 · Posts: 2600

hey, i just wanted to pop in here to both not use capital letters and say "fuck you." it is a review of ico as much as it is a review of shadow of the colossus. i even give a star rating to ico in there. you think because this website is white letters on a black background it has to be gamers.com or some shit? you should know full well that the things you enjoy writing about or reading about are found despicably boring by nine out of ten people; it's the same case with everybody.

in other words, if you want to say something you think someone else will think is funny, first ask yourself if you're laughing. if you're not, by god, go do something else.

Szczepaniak · Posts: 815

For reason, clicking "reply" previously, resulted in me going back to the main forum...

Anyway, which rag mag was the interview for, if you don't mind me asking?

108 · Posts: 2600

A raggy one.

Not gamesTM, though.

Not saying gamesTM isn't a rag.

And not saying I don't like rags. Rags have character.

Some American games magazines these days don't even have that. That's what America lacks -- a games rag.

New name for a magazine? "GAMERAG."

Or "RAGAZINE"?

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

Just so you know, I had my mom read this review. Yes!

108 · Posts: 2600

Just so you know, I had a fifty-something professor from Stanford email me about this review.

the drunken samurai · Posts: 4645

108 wrote:

Just so you know, I had a fifty-something professor from Stanford email me about this review.

REALLY? what did he say?

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

the drunken samurai wrote:

108 wrote:

Just so you know, I had a fifty-something professor from Stanford email me about this review.

REALLY? what did he say?

"Nice review of Ico!"

Westacular · Posts: 571

the vinculum gate wrote:

"Nice review of Ico!"

Now there is how to say it in a funny way!

Not that I at all agree with the sentiment -- Shadow of the Colossus is tied to Ico in so many ways that to not spend time discussing both would be a terrible mistake.

Tim: You are not that white guy; you are the white guy; the one who has mastered the genre.

I wrote up a response to your review last week but was at a loss of where to put it -- neither of the other threads seemed relevant -- but I shall post it here now:

tim's review wrote:

There's that little pins-and-needles twinge of sudden dread, and that cold wave of refreshing relief. Ico gives us that a few times, until the effect wears off and we're desensitized to it.

Shadow of the Colossus lacks that "fear of loss", but it achieves a different emotion instead: a greater sense of romantic tragedy. Similar, but not the same. And once again, you know from the very start where, emotionally, the game is going to end, making it all the more tragic.

Notice that I wrote that before going on to read:

tim's review wrote:

What Ueda wanted to do with his second game, Shadow of the Colossus, was evoke an emotion. That emotion was to be the same emotion Ico evoked. According to Ueda, it's impossible for him to go out and declare which emotion that is. It differs from player to player. Whatever Ico made you feel, Shadow of the Colossus will make you feel the same thing. If you claim it makes you feel something different, then, Ueda says, you must have grown up a little bit since you played Ico.

tim's review wrote:

Ueda, who's as humble and modest a Japanese guy as you're going to meet this side of Katamari Damashii's Keita Takahashi...

I had read of Ueda's friendship with Takahashi previously:

OPM wrote:

OPM: Of your contemporaries, no one seems to be designing games remotely similar to yours. Are there any games out there that you particularly enjoy? Katamari Damacy perhaps?

FU: Mr. Takahashi, who designed Katamari Damacy, is one of the few friends that I have in the industry. Of course, I enjoyed the sequel, too.

(Source: http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=2&cId=3143702)

tim's review wrote:

He's saying that the hero has come from a far-off land to do something he can only do in this land, and that he has brought the legendary Ancient Sword with him to do it. The voice reminds him that what he is doing is forbidden in the land he comes from, and it may cost him his life. The hero looks wildly around, and shouts that he is prepared.

Not in the English version. Well, not quite. The same points are made, but (if your description is accurate) they are approached from a slightly different angle.

I had not (conciously) made the connection between the wide emptiness of SotC and that of Zelda, but in hindsight it seems so obvious.

Shadow of the Colossus has several technical flaws -- clipping issues, freezes, some graphical artifacts -- that really don't matter in the end, but, as you comment in your closing paragraph, I cannot help but selfishly long for whatever PS3 pseudo-sequel that is to follow, if only in the hope of having a game like this that is both as beautiful in execution as this was in design.

Someone should totally start an entry on the IC wiki listing each Colossus, giving it a semi-official name, and discussing the deep symbolic meaning each carries for both the story of the main character and the journey of man. Actually, Tim, how do Ueda and company refer to the different colossi -- do they use names like, "the lion", "the bird", etc, or ... something else?

weird · Posts: 5

cialis - http://www.bestrxpills.com

Scratchmonkey · Posts: 2229

Hell, how can I follow that up?

Well, Tim, if you still have one of those Shadow demo discs, I'd like one. See, I've got a Test PS2 too. Uh, email me or PM me or something.

Also: I felt like the lo-fidelity of the graphics actually works more for the the game than works against it. It's not even particularly good-looking for a PS2 game, in the graphics-whore, mip-mapping way that say, the MGS games have been.

It's got this great washed-out aesthetic and an expressionistic use of lighting that I'm not sure would be as powerful with a graphical engine of greater fidelity. Maybe I'm crazy; it seems similar to how you can only do some things with black and white film, in the sense that a colorized version of The Seventh Seal would completely wreck the movie.

Edited to add: I wrote the above paragrah, then went back to the review and read the paragraph where Tim compares Shadow to The Seventh Seal. Creepy. 2-in-the-morning creepy, perhaps; still, creepy.

108 · Posts: 2600

Scratchmonkey wrote:

Edited to add: I wrote the above paragrah, then went back to the review and read the paragraph where Tim compares Shadow to The Seventh Seal. Creepy. 2-in-the-morning creepy, perhaps; still, creepy.

You know, the game really has that Seventh Seal vibe about it. Looking at "The Seventh Seal" and then looking at, say, "Armageddon" shows us the distance movies have traveled. Wanda gave me the impression that it is the beginning, rather than the middle, of the story we call "the modern videogame." So yeah, there's a lot farther to go.

I have gotten SO many emails about my stance on the graphics.

SORRY!!

This computer is slow as fuck right now because I'm ripping Elementary Headcoats for my new iPod.

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

Westacular wrote:

Someone should totally start an entry on the IC wiki listing each Colossus, giving it a semi-official name, and discussing the deep symbolic meaning each carries for both the story of the main character and the journey of man. Actually, Tim, how do Ueda and company refer to the different colossi -- do they use names like, "the lion", "the bird", etc, or ... something else?

There's a Gamespot guide that gives semi-official names. No idea HOW semi-official they are, but some of them are bizarre enough that I'd say they're probably right. Not that I doubt that we could do better.

I can't remember whether the guidebook gave them definitive names, or not. I'd guess they were pretty close to these, actually.

Scratchmonkey · Posts: 2229

108 wrote:

I have gotten SO many emails about my stance on the graphics.

And here it gets funny again, as I actually hadn't gotten to that section of the review before writing that, I was more responding to Westacular.

And now that I'm done reading the review:

This is good stuff man, thanks.

Westacular · Posts: 571

Intentionally Wrong wrote:

There's a Gamespot guide that gives semi-official names. No idea HOW semi-official they are, but some of them are bizarre enough that I'd say they're probably right. Not that I doubt that we could do better.

I can't remember whether the guidebook gave them definitive names, or not. I'd guess they were pretty close to these, actually.

Bah. They're trying to hard. "Thunder Ripple"? "Earthshaker"? Reading through those names, the fact that I thought I knew which they were referring to only to realize upon closer that I was wrong tells me that those names are not nearly as representative as they could be.

I mean, of those two I mentioned, just call them "Electric Eel" and "Snake" and there's no mistaking them.

Westacular · Posts: 571

Scratchmonkey wrote:

It's got this great washed-out aesthetic and an expressionistic use of lighting that I'm not sure would be as powerful with a graphical engine of greater fidelity. Maybe I'm crazy; it seems similar to how you can only do some things with black and white film, in the sense that a colorized version of The Seventh Seal would completely wreck the movie.

This reminds me of something interesting and not entirely unrelated I learned two weeks ago, in a presentation from someone who's in the standards commitees for creating all those video compression standards. He was talking about H.264, which is "the next big thing" and going to (soon enough) be used in various forms for everything; it's already on some cell phones and the new iPod and it will be the standard for HD DVD / Blu-Ray. Anyway, he was saying that the standard was more or less done and capable of encoding everything nicely enough -- noisy little things like film grain would be filtered out because it's not worth the extra effort to encode the noise, but who cares? It's noise, you want less noise. They thought they were doing the users a favour.

Then the Hollywood folks came in and insisted that the standard be able to represent film grain in all its glory because it's not noise, it's Artistic! It's just not the same movie if you don't get every little fleck of detail of the grain, apparently. So for the profile of the spec to be used on things like HD-DVDs, they had to go back and add to the draft standard a number of more troublesome things (as in, more expensive to put on a decoder chip) to be able to effectively include grain in the signal.

The whole ordeal really does raise the question of at what points are technical limitations "problems" or "artistic decisions". (Hint: We know George Lucas's opinion.)

Scratchmonkey · Posts: 2229

I've seen more and more people saying that they'd love to see what this game would look like with more powerful technology; I can understand this as I really want to see what Ueda can do with next-generation technology. Given what he's produced already, it should be fantastic.

I don't want to see Shadow with next-generation technology because, well, it's part of the design of the game. Part of the reason that it gives the sense of being a Seventh Seal or a Dr. Caligari are the obvious technological problems. In the sense that an emulated version of a game is not the same as the original, a graphical upgrade of Shadow would be a different game, a different experience.

I'm being too black-and-white by saying "I don't want to see...". If such a game existed, I would buy it and play it and probably enjoy it. I certainly don't want games to continue to look like PS2 games. I just don't think a graphically-updated version would be the same experience. (Which is probably worth responding to with a "duh".)

Westacular · Posts: 571

Right. ("Duh"?) It would be a different experience ... which is sorta the point. I am intrigued by the idea of an experience that carries the spirit of the game -- and Ico before it -- and further removes the technological problems.

I don't want the same game over again; that would be a waste of Ueda's time. What I want is Ueda to keep making games! And if he can fix/avoid some of these issues while he's at it, it would be much appreciated!

Which, I think is what you're saying also. So let's return to the real question.

Tim, what on Earth is Sony paying you to actually do? I mean this in the most kindly curious way.

extralife · Posts: 3316

Westacular wrote:

Tim, what on Earth is Sony paying you to actually do? I mean this in the most kindly curious way.

He's a viral marketer. You think that PSP shit on lik-sang was for fun?

108 · Posts: 2600

extralife wrote:

Westacular wrote:

Tim, what on Earth is Sony paying you to actually do? I mean this in the most kindly curious way.

He's a viral marketer. You think that PSP shit on lik-sang was for fun?

Actually, that was for MONEY.

And they threw an iPod in with the deal.

I will cover the PS3 launch for them, too!

And I'm not a viral marketer. I'm . . . something much more boring.

It's fun, though!

See this post??!!

I'm writing it from "WORK"!!

chameleoneel · Posts: 1238

first things first before i forget--HeadTeeth. that's my name for one of the Colossi.

so, I like the review, though its not as tight as some of your other reviews. like, i just don't think you talked about SoC itself, enough. the review could have and should have been longer (heheh), I'm totally fine with and glad that you did all of the rambling and comparison that you did, but i think that you concentrated on too much of what you wanted from the game, and not so much the game itself.

its a PS2 man, the graphics can't get any better(on a technically, features, pixel shader, anti aliasing, 2,000 dollar PC or xbox 360 level). art direction, that is what we need to pay attention to, art direction is what console games have in spades, and PC games usually don't (HL2 included in the don't pile, except for the last chunk of the game, which looks considerably better than the whole game before it). art direction is what i think reviewers should concentrate on, and not so much the graphics themselves. F.E.A.R. is another great example, probably the most graphically demanding game on your hardware features-wise, but the art assets are generally pretty poor. Swat 4 manages to look basically as good, despite a less feature rich graphics engine--because it's art assets and art direction are something F.E.A.R. needs to read up on. so yeah, look at art direction and what the game does do, and not so much what you wish for, cuz in the end, its a PS2, it probably can't deliver on all of your wants--graphically speaking, I understand what you want, but dood....

...mechanically though, yeah, they could have tightened up the collision and made the crawling animation transitions a smidge smoother so you don't get disoriented and end up diagonally upside down or whatever.

things that realy bothered me about the game-- the damn hints, they should never have been in there, or should have been summonable if needed, cuz they significantly ruined my experience with more than a couple of Colossi.

and the camera, should have been Jak 2 and 3 style, completely user controlled, but somehow smart with automaticness to it. I hated the fact that the camera would always swing back behind Wander no matter what (also, i played the entire game without knowing about the lock on feature) but still, I want my own choosable view of the action, and my own custom lock-on ala MGS3 (I love you Kojima).

despite those problems, i fuckin loved that game (SoC). seriously. so, now that i'm thinking about it, we ended up in the same spot i guess, yeah we both have some problems with the game, but on the whole, its magnificient and awesome and shit. so yeah, "Highest recommendation".

P.S. how do i get an avatar? I can't figure out how to load one

Szczepaniak · Posts: 815

So... This is like the first proper Colossus topic I found, whilst doing a search.

Anyway, I am able to buy the Chinese language version for only £8 new.

But I need to know... is there much dialogue/text in here? Will the game be RUINED if I don't play it in English?

Is it worth my paying like £20 more, maybe even waiting another month or two, just to play it in English? Or should I buy it RIGHT now, for £8, in Japanese/Chinese?

It's your call Insert Credit, make this decision for me.

EDIT:
I may as well also reveal, it's Play-Asia kids. Go there is you seek cheap Cologne. And by Cologne, I mean Colossus.

boojiboy7 · Posts: 1104

Provided you acn play imports, i don't really see a reason not to. I read somewheres that the game has english subtitles. And a lot of people have commented that having no subtitles would have made the fights a lot cooler. Personally, I say go for it.

username · Posts: 186

The game might actually be better if you couldn't read it, although it might get confusing near the end briefly.

ste · Posts: 17

Why are all your reviews very pretentious and thirty pages too long? Still, props for not subtly mentioning how you're living the nerd dream by residing in Japan for this one, or going off into some tangent about getting a burrito out of your microwave (Japanese manufactured of course) for three paragraphs.