IC Forum Archive

James · Posts: 1735

I love wandering for an hour and only being able to find one dungeon. Every time I try and clear this thing, it punches me in the cock.

lonely game

sethsez · Posts: 1977

The flow is what makes the game.

James · Posts: 1735

Makes the game what? Annoying?

I realise they had to pad it out and there was no genre rulebook, but come on. I found another one and it's dungeon 3, what the shit?

Thunder Force 6 · Posts: 308

zelda just hasn't aged well, is all.

i'd love to see someone leak that capcom remake from a few years back.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

It has no flow? Exploring the world is the flow. You are hardly told what anything does. Dungeons can be anywhere. It's about analysis of the world. Poking every nook and corner for new things to see. Bad flow would come out if it pointed you in the direction of the first dungeon but kept stopping you along the way.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

Thunder Force 6 wrote:

zelda just hasn't aged well, is all.

i'd love to see someone leak that capcom remake from a few years back.

So it could be freaking lifeless?

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

IC defends poorly aging game in this thread

countdown to 'you just don't get it' starting

sethsez · Posts: 1977

The first Zelda is not about a nicely-organized sequence of overworld and dungeon sections. If you want a string of dungeons, the original Zelda is not for you, because it's mostly about the overworld. If you don't like the overworld, that's another issue, and an argument could be made that it's too uniform.

James · Posts: 1735

Rud13 wrote:

It has no flow? Exploring the world is the flow. You are hardly told what anything does. Dungeons can be anywhere. It's about analysis of the world. Poking every nook and corner for new things to see. Bad flow would come out if it pointed you in the direction of the first dungeon but kept stopping you along the way.

And I'd love that if the gameworld wasn't so deceivingly constrictive, or if I had some way to see how far I'd traveled in the world, like a map or something.

The basic concepts posited are fine but there are glaring flaws in the execution. It's the kind of game that blows you away when you're four years old, I'm sure. Roland on the Ropes blew me away when I was four. Roland on the ropes is not a very good game, though.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

James wrote:

I love wandering for an hour and only being able to find one dungeon. Every time I try and clear this thing, it punches me in the cock.

lonely game

You suck at finding dungeons?

Like seriously, I can beat the original NES Zelda in not more than 5 hours, and that's going slowly. The dungeons are really easy to find with one or two exceptions, and even those aren't of the "burn every bush on the screen until one of them disappears" variety.

Or are you playing the Master Quest?

Also use a map/strategy guide. The original release practically shipped with one and as far as I'm concerned it's part of the original intended play experience. It's also a hell of a lot less annoying than navi.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

To be fair, I'm almost certain the original came with a World Map.

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

Mister Toups wrote:

It's also a hell of a lot less annoying than navi.

oh give me a break

sethsez · Posts: 1977

James wrote:

And I'd love that if the gameworld wasn't so deceivingly constrictive, or if I had some way to see how far I'd traveled in the world, like a map or something.

There's the little grey box up in the corner that shows you, relatively, where in the overworld map you are.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

the vinculum gate wrote:

Mister Toups wrote:

It's also a hell of a lot less annoying than navi.

oh give me a break

Ok.

I am giving the vinculum gate a break in this post.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

the vinculum gate wrote:

Mister Toups wrote:

It's also a hell of a lot less annoying than navi.

oh give me a break

Everyone, even the people who adored OoT and would give up their first born son for it, bitched about Navi. That's not some unique self-aggrandizing Insert Credit complaint.

Karoshi · Posts: 968

Rud13 wrote:

Bad flow would come out if it pointed you in the direction of the first dungeon but kept stopping you along the way.

Like Wind Waker.

James · Posts: 1735

the vinculum gate wrote:

IC defends poorly aging game in this thread

countdown to 'you just don't get it' starting

sethsez wrote:

The first Zelda is not about a nicely-organized sequence of overworld and dungeon sections. If you want a string of dungeons, the original Zelda is not for you, because it's mostly about the overworld. If you don't like the overworld, that's another issue, and an argument could be made that it's too uniform.

Well called, Vinny.

chosun · Posts: 288

the game blew me away when i was 20. it's kind of fun to have to make up your own maps, mentally or physically. you can reach almost anywhere on the overworld right from the start, no blatant checkpoints, i liked that.

do you just have a grudge because everyone bashed your favourite Zelda game

dongle · Posts: 236

The original cartridge indeed did come with an overworld map. I would recommend printing out a copy if you are emulating. I never found the flow to be off or weird, and I would deny that it aged poorly. It aged poorly in the sense that if it were much longer than 3-5 hours, it would get old, but it's fine as a short diversion.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

the vinculum gate wrote:

IC defends poorly aging game in this thread

countdown to 'you just don't get it' starting

you got anything to contribute with that smarm?

James · Posts: 1735

Mister Toups wrote:

Like seriously, I can beat the original NES Zelda in not more than 5 hours, and that's going slowly. The dungeons are really easy to find with one or two exceptions, and even those aren't of the "burn every bush on the screen until one of them disappears" variety.

Yes, of course you can Toups.

Want to know the reason for that? You probably beat this game years before I even tried to play it. That's like me saying I can beat Sonic in a couple of hours - it ignores the fact I couldn't beat the last boss for the first fortnight of play, and that I couldn't reach Star Light Zone for a year or more.

aderack · Posts: 5018

The game with the water is the one with poor flow.

Anyway, yeah. The game came with a huge fold-out map. Between that and observing the terrain, you should be able to figure things out pretty easily. Dungeon #8, for instance, was something like the fourth dungeon I ever found just because its entrance so screams for investigation.

Also! That you can enter the dungeons out-of-order is part of the point.

Also! The general principle to the overworld is that it kind of fences you in by a mixture of the difficulty of the enemies, the awkwardness of getting places, and distance from teh starting point. Yeah, you can go pretty much anywhere from the start. It should be relatively easy to tell where you're sort of intended to, though. Parts close to the start with fewer, easier enemies and greener, less forbidding terrain = early portions. Rocky portions with minotaurs throwing swords at you and boulders falling from the sky = later portions. It's kind of like Dragon Warrior.

James · Posts: 1735

Rud13 wrote:

Bad flow would come out if it pointed you in the direction of the first dungeon but kept stopping you along the way.

Uhm, how?

That's like complaining that GTA 3 doesn't let me cap Salvatore Leone on the first mission - you have an overarching objective, and sub-quests before you reach that objective. I mean, you know you just bitched about something that's a common narrative device?

sethsez · Posts: 1977

James wrote:

the vinculum gate wrote:

IC defends poorly aging game in this thread

countdown to 'you just don't get it' starting

sethsez wrote:

The first Zelda is not about a nicely-organized sequence of overworld and dungeon sections. If you want a string of dungeons, the original Zelda is not for you, because it's mostly about the overworld. If you don't like the overworld, that's another issue, and an argument could be made that it's too uniform.

Well called, Vinny.

You know, sometimes "you don't get it" is actually a resonable reply. If you're complaining that dungeons aren't pointed out all the time, why are you playing the first Zelda? That's like complaining about not being able to go left in the first Mario game, even though you can in every one since. It just wasn't a part of the design.

Plus, if you could only find one dungeon in over an hour of play, you suck at the game. There, two cliches! And both of them true. Most of the dungeons are out in the open and they're spread liberally around the place. To go for an hour without finding anything means you've got the shittiest luck possible.

James · Posts: 1735

Rud13 wrote:

the vinculum gate wrote:

IC defends poorly aging game in this thread

countdown to 'you just don't get it' starting

you got anything to contribute with that smarm?

Well, since someone did exactly that following his original post, I'd say it was a pretty valid point!

Wilkes · Posts: 1603

I could never really finish the original zelda.

I like to pretend I just don't have the imagination; it's probably more to do with a lack of patience. Older games, they really require some imagination. I'd like to think they do, anyway. If I don't come up with some expanded plot or imaginative scenery to a game that has me wandering around ugly blocks for half an hour, I stop playing. I'm pretty spoiled by now though.

It's a lot like Morrowind except worse. Morrowind assisted my imagination, whereas Zelda simply made room for it.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

James wrote:

Rud13 wrote:

Bad flow would come out if it pointed you in the direction of the first dungeon but kept stopping you along the way.

Uhm, how?

That's like complaining that GTA 3 doesn't let me cap Salvatore Leone on the first mission - you have an overarching objective, and sub-quests before you reach that objective. I mean, you know you just bitched about something that's a common narrative device?

First off strawman. Secondly, It's like giving you the first mission and pointing you towards it but keep interrupting you with things you HAVE to do to get to it.

Lestrade · Posts: 817

Mister Toups wrote:

Also use a map/strategy guide. The original release practically shipped with one and as far as I'm concerned it's part of the original intended play experience. It's also a hell of a lot less annoying than navi.

Yes it did and yes it was. From the back of the Zelda box:

I've never played through the original Zelda, but I'd like to someday. I sure as hell would use a map, though!

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Yeah, the game's manual showed you where the first two dungeons were, at the very least, and walked you through getting to them and getting a bunch of useful items. I don't think most of the people who played the game when it came out did so without it.

aderack · Posts: 5018

Also, yes: the overworld basically IS the original Zelda; the dungeons are just extra-dangerous little pits you occasionally stumble across, that you venture into in search of treasure and adventure. Sort of like bonus stages.

That's a big part of what the later games have lost, by making the overworld more of just sort of filler between the dungeons, or a hub. Zelda 1 is weird danger in the sunbaked sand. More or less. It's sort of similar to the Sonic problem. Recall the solution to Sonic Adventure wasn't to remove the "adventure" stage; it was to make it a big action stage with occasional focused, linear action stages branching off in sensible places? And how instead Sega has put all its focus on the linear action stages for their own sake, making modern Sonic games sort of like a string of bonus stages with nothing substantial tying them together? Yeah. Zelda's never quite sunk to Sonic's depth. The principle is kind of similar, though.

Lestrade · Posts: 817

Does the GBA port come with a map and/or tip sheet?

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

Aderack correct that last sentence please.

James · Posts: 1735

sethsez wrote:

You know, sometimes "you don't get it" is actually a resonable reply. If you're complaining that dungeons aren't pointed out all the time, why are you playing the first Zelda? That's like complaining about not being able to go left in the first Mario game, even though you can in every one since. It just wasn't a part of the design.

Plus, if you could only find one dungeon in over an hour of play, you suck at the game. There, two cliches! And both of them true. Most of the dungeons are out in the open and they're spread liberally around the place. To go for an hour without finding anything means you've got the shittiest luck possible.

Firstly I'd like to ask you to stop being such a patronizing dick, Seth. Please?

Not being able to go left in Mario does not impede one's progress in the game. Wandering around in cricles around fairly identical screens looking for one of eight needles in a fucking hay-stack does. Some of the areas are so generic and yet so adjacent that it's hard to spot a missed turn, or attempt a systematic sweep. 8 dungeons in a whole game world is not "liberal". Theming of areas is poor. Since the narrative has been tightened up in every successive game I would imagine wondering around like a tit in a trance was not the original intent behind the game.

As for why I'm playing Zelda? I wanted to. I like the concepts and the asthetic. Please don't make assumtions as to why I should be playing this game.

aderack · Posts: 5018

Which one?

Oh, that one.

Karoshi · Posts: 968

Lestrade wrote:

Does the GBA port come with a map and/or tip sheet?

From what I remember, it's a reprint of the original manual.
So it should still have the overworld map layout underneath the "story" section.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

Lestrade wrote:

Does the GBA port come with a map and/or tip sheet?

I don't believe so. I'm about 1500 miles from my copy though.

chosun · Posts: 288

9 dungeons actually!

18 dungeons if you count "the whole game"

has Angry Nintendo Nerd done a video on Zelda yet?

LW Joestar · Posts: 1358

chosun wrote:

9 dungeons actually!

18 dungeons if you count "the whole game"

Are you implying that the dungeons are actually "subdungeons"

chosun · Posts: 288

LW Joestar wrote:

chosun wrote:

9 dungeons actually!

18 dungeons if you count "the whole game"

Are you implying that the dungeons are actually "subdungeons"

SPOILERS!: there's a second quest where you become the true hero of Hyrule! and get robbed by old men

aderack · Posts: 5018

I just realized that all of this "dark world" stuff in the later games is basically an attempt to mix the first and second quests (two overworlds!) into one game -- much as Harmony of Dissonance mixes the normal and reversed castles (sort of) into one.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

James wrote:

First off strawman. Secondly, It's like giving you the first mission and pointing you towards it but keep interrupting you with things you HAVE to do to get to it.

I see no strawman, Rud13. The GTA games are packed with examples of missions that dangle carrots in front of your face for a good chunk of game hours.

OK, I still find the GTA comparison to be inaccurate. What we have here is. This is a world, in this world is 8 dungeons. Find the 8 dungeons. Beat the 8 dungeons and you will beat the game. (Here's where my memory can't confirm if the last dungeon is 8 or there is one after it.)

We don't have. Find the first dungeon, BUT FIRST find the key to the first dungeon, which requires you do this quest to given the first key, which you may have to do something to even be given access to the quest.

Either way, knowledge that the original game came with a map and a guide to the first two dungeons alleviates many of your complaints with the game. If you can't enjoy the game after that, well you can't enjoy the game. I think I find myself more drawn to Zelda 2 than 1. It might just be I haven't played 2 enough though.

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

aderack wrote:

I just realized that all of this "dark world" stuff in the later games is basically an attempt to mix the first and second quests (two overworlds!) into one game -- much as Harmony of Dissonance mixes the normal and reversed castles (sort of) into one.

I think you're pushing it Aderack.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

Rud13 wrote:

(Here's where my memory can't confirm if the last dungeon is 8 or there is one after it.)

There is. And it had the best music in the game.

And James, the world isn't huge. Sorry, but if you're walking in circles constantly... well, I didn't have that problem when I was five. Note I didn't say I worked through the problem when I was five, I'm saying it just didn't happen. I guess I just don't see what's so confusing about the overworld, and you haven't really said what it is either. Your complaints basically boil down to "this game sucks because it sucks and I'm confused" which is why it's hard to come up with a reply that doesn't sound patronizing.

klikbeep · Posts: 485

James wrote:

game[s] blow[ ] you away when you're four years old

aderack · Posts: 5018

No, not really; just moving too quickly.

Here. Zelda 1 has 18 dungeons and two overworlds, yes? Those two overworlds are practically the same, except one is a rougher and harder secret version -- an "alternate universe" version of the familiar overworld. It's often described as sort of creepy, because nothing's quite the way it's supposed to be.

Later Zelda games often involve a dark version of the overworld, to which the above description more or less applies. Conceptually the idea is basically the same; it's just that the two overworlds overlap within one game, rather than the game asking the player to play through twice in a row to see them both.

Whether this was the conscious intent at the time is another matter. In effect, though, there it is. I'm willing to bet it was at least somewhat intentional, however. Witness Ocarina of Time: basically an attempt to blend Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 together, into a single narrative. Majora's Mask builds on the masks and time elements that weren't fully explored in the previous game. This is generally the kind of thought process behind the series.

Red_venom · Posts: 338

Thunder Force 6 wrote:

zelda just hasn't aged well, is all.

i'd love to see someone leak that capcom remake from a few years back.

Wow I feel so strongly the opposite of this that I am practically standing up and screaming at the wall right now.

If anything Ocarina of Time and various other Zelda games have aged poorly. The first two are still the pinnacles of the fucking series.

I personally feel its because of how well the lonely narrative still translates. I mean it never looked like anything good even back in 1986 so really you can look at it as a piece of art. The one thing you could complain about and be justified is the control I guess, but then you would be a god damn baby.

I was talking with a longtime gamer friend on the phone about Zelda last night actually, after a lengthy discussion about Duengon Explorer and how I was drawn to the game at about 9 years old just due to its very sparse and dark look. I can practically envision any field on the overworld in my head with no problem, I am not even a Zelda fanatic and I have only played through the first about two complete times. It just says SOMETHING to me about the game design because I cant even come close with later games except for sorta Zelda 3 and some of them I have played much more.

the vinculum gate · Posts: 2868

LONELY NARRATIVE

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT

HEAD EXPLODING

for the record i've tried to play through the first zelda a few times and just got frustrated by the pointlessness of it. the game badly needs a dangling carrot, something fixed in later iterations of the series.

link's awakening is the best zelda and you all know it.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

the vinculum gate wrote:

the game badly needs a dangling carrot, something fixed in later iterations of the series.

I disagree.

aderack · Posts: 5018

The carrot is exploration for its own sake: experiencing wonder at new sights, new places, occasionally finding something neat and useful that aids further exploration.

Telling the player where to go and what to do is kind of counter to the point of leaving the player to make his own discoveries -- some small and pointless, some huge.

sethsez · Posts: 1977

In all fairness there's not much wonder to be found in the sights of Zelda.