IC Forum Archive

Faithless · Posts: 370

Since I gave up drinking, I'll be picking up a new vice.

Does Online Poker count as a video-game?

Dark Age Iron Savior · Posts: 3148

Faithless get a bonsai tree or a pet

Also tell us if it's true that Dave Halverson himself gave Sonic Next a 9.5

Faithless · Posts: 370

Dark Age Iron Savior wrote:

Faithless get a bonsai tree or a pet

Also tell us if it's true that Dave Halverson himself gave Sonic Next a 9.5

Yes. 9.5. That makes it .5 less of a game than Final Fantasy XII, and on par with Contact (... at least as far as my reviews go).

FocusRambo · Posts: 829

I need to take something into studio one day. You know, some vodka in a Code Red bottle or something.

My excuse is that some artists get drunk lots! And do well and die young(er than they should have)!

James · Posts: 1735

How many epic rails of cocaine are you snorting off the rude-ass titties of willing PR girls to justify those scores (and does Dave still think Chaotix is the best 2D platformer ever)

108 · Posts: 2600

Faithless wrote:

I'm setting a simple goal: get to New Year's Eve. That's a month and a half without drinking, which is far longer than I've ever gone.

Your parents must have been quite adamant about feeding times, then.

Broco · Posts: 546

108 wrote:

There are simply these three- or four-day periods each month wherein I impregnate girls (on the bus, train, street, restuarant, bar) just by looking at them.

Be that as it may, Chuck Norris can still roundhouse kick your butt!

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

chuck norris is shit

Faithless · Posts: 370

108 wrote:

Faithless wrote:

I'm setting a simple goal: get to New Year's Eve. That's a month and a half without drinking, which is far longer than I've ever gone.

Your parents must have been quite adamant about feeding times, then.

Not parents. Grandparents. Remember, this shit skips a generation. And not to endore stereotypes, but the mother's side is Native American. We're talking drinking to death.

108 wrote:

Faithless wrote:

I was in danger of fucking everyone around me.

I get like that, sometimes, though alcohol has nothing to do with it, I'm afraid. There are simply these three- or four-day periods each month wherein I impregnate girls (on the bus, train, street, restuarant, bar) just by looking at them.

My lawyer is starting to get fed up with me.

I had the same problem before I went straight. Couldn't figure out how they were getting pregnant, though. Maybe you were just standing behind me.

108 · Posts: 2600

Faithless wrote:

108 wrote:

Faithless wrote:

I was in danger of fucking everyone around me.

I get like that, sometimes, though alcohol has nothing to do with it, I'm afraid. There are simply these three- or four-day periods each month wherein I impregnate girls (on the bus, train, street, restuarant, bar) just by looking at them.

My lawyer is starting to get fed up with me.

I had the same problem before I went straight. Couldn't figure out how they were getting pregnant, though. Maybe you were just standing behind me.

my god i love standing behind girls

thinkin of doin it on the train on the way home!!

extralife · Posts: 3316

Too easy

Mr. Apol · Posts: 279

James wrote:

How many epic rails of cocaine are you snorting off the rude-ass titties of willing PR girls to justify those scores (and does Dave still think Chaotix is the best 2D platformer ever)

rude-ass titties is my new favorite phrase for this week

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

108 wrote:

Faithless wrote:

108 wrote:

Faithless wrote:

I was in danger of fucking everyone around me.

I get like that, sometimes, though alcohol has nothing to do with it, I'm afraid. There are simply these three- or four-day periods each month wherein I impregnate girls (on the bus, train, street, restuarant, bar) just by looking at them.

My lawyer is starting to get fed up with me.

I had the same problem before I went straight. Couldn't figure out how they were getting pregnant, though. Maybe you were just standing behind me.

my god i love standing behind girls

thinkin of doin it on the train on the way home!!

Don't chikan out tim!

Faithless · Posts: 370

James wrote:

How many epic rails of cocaine are you snorting off the rude-ass titties of willing PR girls to justify those scores (and does Dave still think Chaotix is the best 2D platformer ever)

No, he doesn't think Chaotix is the best platformer ever.

But regarding his high scores, there's actually a Editor's Letter about it this (or last) month. He talks about only reviewing games that he likes and stuff.

You should read it.

Or my piece on Marie Antionette and gaming. I'm a fucking genius.

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

Faithless wrote:

James wrote:

How many epic rails of cocaine are you snorting off the rude-ass titties of willing PR girls to justify those scores (and does Dave still think Chaotix is the best 2D platformer ever)

No, he doesn't think Chaotix is the best platformer ever.

But regarding his high scores, there's actually a Editor's Letter about it this (or last) month. He talks about only reviewing games that he likes and stuff.

You should read it.

Or my piece on Marie Antionette and gaming. I'm a fucking genius.

I read that letter and while he (sort of) has a good point, it doesn't explain why they reviewed Nanobreaker and gave it a 9.

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

I thought Nanobreaker had all the parts of a good videogame

you dig?

Maztorre · Posts: 1175

Is reviewing only the games you like actual journalism? It's a bit like writing puff-pieces for a paper all the time with no desire to do anything more than that.

Also winker if Nanobreaker has all the parts of a good videogame then where the christ have they been hidden? Maybe the Hot Coffee guys can find the good code somewhere.

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

I just meant that if you break a game down in such a way as i'm presuming this magazine does then the actual final product will not be represented

graphics
sound
lunch provided by developer
etc

you dig?

Maztorre · Posts: 1175

winker you forgot LASTABILITY and FUN FACTOR lololol

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

i not lol

Mister Toups · Posts: 4943

winkerwanker wrote:

I thought Nanobreaker had all the parts of a good videogame

you dig?

winker are you making oblique reference to my nanobreaker review you lovable scamp you

winkerwanker · Posts: 2414

Faithless · Posts: 370

Maztorre wrote:

Is reviewing only the games you like actual journalism? It's a bit like writing puff-pieces for a paper all the time with no desire to do anything more than that.

With limited page space, why not only review games that are worth playing? The flagrant omissions speak for themselves.

He publishes some negatives once in a while, also.

I think the magazine will get stronger when it has a more tangible online presence. That way everything can get the space it needs.

Maztorre · Posts: 1175

Faithless wrote:

why not only review games that are worth playing?

Dave Halverson wrote:

Sonic the Hedgehog(Xbox360, PS3): 9.5

Do you see? :(

James · Posts: 1735

Faithless wrote:

Maztorre wrote:

Is reviewing only the games you like actual journalism? It's a bit like writing puff-pieces for a paper all the time with no desire to do anything more than that.

With limited page space, why not only review games that are worth playing? The flagrant omissions speak for themselves.

He publishes some negatives once in a while, also.

I think the magazine will get stronger when it has a more tangible online presence. That way everything can get the space it needs.

Because a well-written negative review is as useful and entertaining as a bad review, in and of itself.

Sync-Swim · Posts: 634

Maztorre wrote:

Is reviewing only the games you like actual journalism? It's a bit like writing puff-pieces for a paper all the time with no desire to do anything more than that.

Congratulations, you monster, you just slew NGJ in a single blow =(

Mr. Apol · Posts: 279

Maztorre wrote:

Faithless wrote:

why not only review games that are worth playing?

Dave Halverson wrote:

Sonic the Hedgehog(Xbox360, PS3): 9.5

Do you see? :(

yeah, i mean, i got bored IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DEMO at tgs and went to play HOKUTO NO KEN instead.

that doesn't bode well for the new sonic game.

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

So Hokuto no Ken would be rated an 11?

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

James wrote:

Faithless wrote:

Maztorre wrote:

Is reviewing only the games you like actual journalism? It's a bit like writing puff-pieces for a paper all the time with no desire to do anything more than that.

With limited page space, why not only review games that are worth playing? The flagrant omissions speak for themselves.

He publishes some negatives once in a while, also.

I think the magazine will get stronger when it has a more tangible online presence. That way everything can get the space it needs.

Because a well-written negative review is as useful and entertaining as a bad review, in and of itself.

Well, I'm not really sure how a well-written negative review is as useful as a positive one. Entertaining though... certainly.

James · Posts: 1735

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

Well, I'm not really sure how a well-written negative review is as useful as a positive one. Entertaining though... certainly.

It's useful when people are told why NOT TO WASTE THEIR MONEY ON SHIT. It's useful when companies are told WHAT ISN'T WELCOME and what DOESN'T FUCKING WORK so they can either MAKE BETTER GAMES or FUCK OFF. It's useful when bug-riddled shit is SLAPPED THROUGH THE FUCKING FLOOR OF REALITY to BURN IN THE FUCKING NETHERWORLD. It's useful when the good is praised and the bad is denounced. It's useful when people find their fucking spinal columns are still in their backs and review games instead of apologizing for them. It's not enough to determine what's good, you also have to determine what's bad. The Dave Halverson/Faithless approach to editing and producing a games magazine enables people who make bad games. Don't be a fucking enabler.

Of course, there's probably another reason Dave doesn't give Sega shit...

Giving them blumpkin (while they punch him in the head and yell STUPID ROUNDEYE! YOU SUCK NEARER BASE OF SHAFT) gets him exclusives to sell magazines with. 'nuff said!

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

James wrote:

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

Well, I'm not really sure how a well-written negative review is as useful as a positive one. Entertaining though... certainly.

It's useful when people are told why NOT TO WASTE THEIR MONEY ON SHIT.

So, this is only more useful than a positive review if you assume that there are more good games than bad games. Otherwise one positive review provides the reader with more information.

extralife · Posts: 3316

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

I think you might be right, I just can't think of a reason...

Here's one:

You can't know what's good if you don't know what's bad.

Part of the job of a critic is to establish the rules of the game. To educate the public on how the medium he or she is critiquing works. If you just say a game is "good" you fail; the reverse is no less true.

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

extralife wrote:

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

I think you might be right, I just can't think of a reason...

Here's one:

You can't know what's good if you don't know what's bad.

Part of the job of a critic is to establish the rules of the game. To educate the public on how the medium he or she is critiquing works. If you just say a game is "good" you fail; the reverse is no less true.

Educating the reader on how to determine if a game is good or bad for themselves... without the critic?

Hmm...

Yeah, that works.

Okay.

Maztorre · Posts: 1175

HSB are you aware that the critic's job isn't to weigh up whether or not his review is going to stifle or help sales of a game but to convey to the reader what they think of the game?

extralife · Posts: 3316

It's less about empowering the reader to make decisions for his or herself and more about just raising the level of discourse in general. The end goal is to influence the creation of the works one is critiquing, really, by acting as a sort of guide. Since we're all capitalists, the most effective way to do this is to change the buying habits of the consumer, but that's just a means to the end.

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

Maztorre wrote:

HSB are you aware that the critic's job isn't to weigh up whether or not his review is going to stifle or help sales of a game but to convey to the reader what they think of the game?

Maztorre, what are you trying ot say? I though the discussion was about whether it was better for a journalist to write about what he thought of a game he didn't like, or what he thought of a game he liked. Both are still telling the reader what they think of the game -- it is just a matter of choosing which game you want to write about.

(Obviously you can't write about every game.)

Now, argueing the effect of game reviews on sales is just one possible argument!

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

extralife wrote:

It's less about empowering the reader to make decisions for his or herself and more about just raising the level of discourse in general. The end goal is to influence the creation of the works one is critiquing, really, by acting as a sort of guide. Since we're all capitalists, the most effective way to do this is to change the buying habits of the consumer, but that's just a means to the end.

Well, I think the value in negative reviews is probably in educating the consumer, which will have a long-term effect on the quality of games. I would guess this inadvertadly empowers the consumer over time, and probably decreases the magazine's sales!

So, I guess the smartest move for a magazine to make if they wanted to stay in business would probably be all positive reviews!!

As for buying habits... I'd still argue that postive reviews easily have the most immediate impact on sales.

James · Posts: 1735

A preamble: Hot Stott Bot, you have shit for brains.

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

So, this is only more useful than a positive review if you assume that there are more good games than bad games. Otherwise one positive review provides the reader with more information.

Wh... what? When the CIA do an intelligence report on a region, they don't just list all the locals that LOVE uncle sam. A "positive" intelligence dossier would be less use than a fire extinguisher that shoots petrol out in a big massive jet. Any good editor should assume that the reader knows nothing about the month's releases (within reason) and clearly mark both the escape routes to digital bliss and the pits leading to gaming hell. I want INFORMATION, not a chance to peak at your love letters to the guys who are buying your staff free lunches and whores.

Jeff Garneau · Posts: 1622

james if you stop worrying about what other people buy your blood pressure will go down i promise.

Hot Stott Bot · Posts: 2097

James wrote:

A preamble: Hot Stott Bot, you have shit for brains.

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

So, this is only more useful than a positive review if you assume that there are more good games than bad games. Otherwise one positive review provides the reader with more information.

Wh... what? When the CIA do an intelligence report on a region, they don't just list all the locals that LOVE uncle sam. A "positive" intelligence dossier would be less use than a fire extinguisher that shoots petrol out in a big massive jet. Any good editor should assume that the reader knows nothing about the month's releases (within reason) and clearly mark both the escape routes to digital bliss and the pits leading to gaming hell. I want INFORMATION, not a chance to peak at your love letters to the guys who are buying your staff free lunches and whores.

Come on James, basic information theory:

If you have n bad games and m good games (in a complete set of unknown games) then the chance of picking a good game at random is P = m/(m+n), therefore revelaing 1 game to be good producecs log_2(P^-1) = log_2((m+n)/m) bits of information. Similarly, producing 1 game to be bad produces log_2((m+n)/n) bits of information. So, if n is greater than m, then revealing 1 game to be good always produces more information.

Or more intuitively:

If you have a box of chocolates and only a couple of them are raspberry filled and the rest are orange filled, then pointing out one as raspberry filled provides more information since you could have randomly picked one and probably gotten an orange one anyways.

Oh, unless you want to argue that there are more games worth buying than games not worth buying... in which case all reviews should be negative -- if helping an uninformed consumer making an immediate decision is, in fact, the primary goal.

So, if someone picks up a magazine full of videogame reviews and doesn't know what to buy, positive reviews should better help him make his immediate decision!

(Assuming these are accurate reviews, of course.)

Or another way to look at it:

Your average consumer probably only buys 1 (if that) game. Telling him not to buy this game over here in a store full of videogames is vastly less useful than telling him which game to actually buy.

=============

(Extralife's education/discourse argument was much more sensible.)

James · Posts: 1735

Jeff Garneau wrote:

james if you stop worrying about what other people buy your blood pressure will go down i promise.

Jeff I'm sorry I want to make things better in future I will strive to do nothing as they speed down the toilet at amazing speeds

also if I do care it will be in an ironic way, like hipsters

Why do you post here if you don't want analysis? Why do you post here if you don't want to see a point of view being put forward?

James · Posts: 1735

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

Blah blah blah

Games are not a binary choice. A good game and a bad game are more than single values in a mathematical equation - they need to be unpacked in a written review before any useful information can be gleaned. Only talking about good games makes the concept of a bad game seem ever more impossible. Also, you're an idiot.

James · Posts: 1735

Anyway, here's one of those "useful" reviews:

Faithless · Posts: 370

Looking at all this argument means one thing.
I'm thinking about drinking again ...

Edit Tags: Clarity, Joke, Fun, Sarcasm, Wii

Broco · Posts: 546

HSB, I haven't studied this in detail but my understanding is that log_2(P^-1) only holds when the distribution is known in advance. Since we do not know the precise ratio m/n, our encoding method would need to be somewhat inefficient. Your general argument holds since m < n but your numbers are wrong. Which defeats the point of invoking them! (Assuming anyone but me, Takashi and Toups the Elder would bother to understand what you're talking about anyway.)

James wrote:

Games are not a binary choice. A good game and a bad game are more than single values in a mathematical equation - they need to be unpacked in a written review before any useful information can be gleaned.

Certainly in a general sense, but the choice to purchase or not to purchase that's being discussed here is binary.

James wrote:

(terrible Sonic review)

Hot Stott Bot wrote:

(Assuming these are accurate reviews, of course.)

Rud13 · Posts: 3277

This is a good thread.

extralife · Posts: 3316

HSB's mathematical analysis intrigues me, if only for presenting information in a way I would never glean myself, being math-averse. I would be more inclined to shrug it off as too wooden and sterile (as I like to do with math) if the level of critique in your average gaming publication was more advanced than it currently is. As it stands, these reviews are defaulted to shallow by virtue of the format they use, making it much easier to digest a binary analysis of their efffect. So I see where he's coming from.

Also, James: wasn't it you that said you weren't immediately shruging off the new Sonic game without playing it in response to my not liking the new Zelda? If this is the case, surely there is a chance Halversons's review is indicitive of some sort of quality within the game. I'd hold out on flip out mode.

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

Faithless wrote:

I'm thinking about drinking again ...

Rud13 wrote:

This is a good thread.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

But will you still be funny?

James · Posts: 1735

extralife wrote:

Also, James: wasn't it you that said you weren't immediately shruging off the new Sonic game without playing it in response to my not liking the new Zelda? If this is the case, surely there is a chance Halversons's review is indicitive of some sort of quality within the game. I'd hold out on flip out mode.

Sonic 2006 essentially replicates a bevvy of problems from the preceding 4 3D games - I've had a chance to talk to Maz in depth about it, I can see those failures being repeated in video footage released for it, and some of the shit wrong with it is purely asthetic. It's degraded clone #4 of Sonic Adventure: Fuckwit Adventure. They've changed little if nothing.

By contrast, Zelda TP has a whole new control thing going on, has only 3 immediate forebarers which experimented with an awful lot of elements in the gameworld, asthetic and fundamental design structure. TP is still very much an unknown quality to anyone who hasn't played it.