IC Forum Archive

km · Posts: 171

Controversial topic and so on and so forth...

But I am curious to see where IC stands on this issue. There's no real impetus for this (except maybe the Democrats winning Congress recently, but they've made no noises to that effect lately), I'm just interested in everyone's opinions.

To start things off, I think that gun control is, in general, unwarranted and Bad. Now, I do support restrictions on the sale of guns to minors, handguns especially, and I think anyone who visits the Axe can see why. I also think that making sure people understand what they are really buying (things that can easily kill and are poorly understood by most people) is very, very important.

Otherwise, I think the whole set of legislation is sort of an impotent nanny-state sort of thing. Concealed carry was supposed to destroy society (or something), but the massacres that were supposed to happen... haven't. The end of the assault weapons ban should have resulted in the downfall of society, right? Erm...

Hmmm... It seems that criminals really don't have much of a problem finding guns, even when they are banned, or otherwise prohibited by law...

Personally, I enjoy target shooting. I don't like hunting, but I have no desire to stop others from doing it.

So, IC, I want to hear what you have to say about this sort of thing.

George · Posts: 1656

There are too many people who own and like guns to ban them. That being said, I can't think of any reason why assault weapons should be legal. Sure, criminals CAN get them on the black market, but that's true of crack, heroin, etc. as well. The point of making something illegal is to make it so people can afford less of it, not to get rid of it completely.

aderack · Posts: 5018

km wrote:

Hmmm... It seems that criminals really don't have much of a problem finding guns, even when they are banned, or otherwise prohibited by law...

I say we should just deport the criminal subclass. What are we keeping them around for, anyway?

zebadayus · Posts: 672

I remember reading a news story where some police officers were completely outgunned by some gang members who were armed with some big automatic assault thingies with banana clips.

Like, the kind of guns you could cut a tree, or a house, down with.

aderack · Posts: 5018

km wrote:

Now, I do support restrictions on the sale of guns to minors, handguns especially

If a child really wants a gun, what's to stop him from getting it on the black market?

James · Posts: 1735

We have hell of fucking gun control and our society hasn't collapsed. Also, less shootings!

Takashi · Posts: 820

Do people really think the problem is criminals getting access to assault weapons? The problem here is common folks getting them.
Then again, I'm european and I don't understand your rich cultural history of drive-by shootings.

aderack · Posts: 5018

And hell, if I really wanted to kill someone -- if I had it in my cold calculating heart to do so -- it would be just as easy to chase him down and beat him to death with my shoe as it would be to point a gun at him and shoot him! Let's not kid around here.

Clash! · Posts: 631

aderack wrote:

And hell, if I really wanted to kill someone -- if I had it in my cold calculating heart to do so -- it would be just as easy to chase him down and beat him to death with my shoe as it would be to point a gun at him and shoot him! Let's not kid around here.

What if you have that shoe, and I have a gun?

I'd shoot the shoe, and then hit you with the gun.

aderack · Posts: 5018

While we're here, has anyone calculated how many shoe-deaths we've averted thanks to the second amendment? It must tally in the hundreds!

Takashi · Posts: 820

How about if you started hitting people with your shoe in the middle, of let's say, a crowded subway? And what shoe would it be? Because, you know, you'd rather it be a pair of Hush Puppies or some steel-toed Doc Martins?

aderack · Posts: 5018

If I really want to kill someone, does it matter?

James · Posts: 1735

why aderack it's almost if you're suggesting most firearms fatalities aren't premotivated

aderack · Posts: 5018

Heavens, no! Clearly firearms are the thinking man's weapon. Look how much strategy goes into war planning!

If anything, having a gun will inspire me to weigh my options more carefully before I choose to murder someone in cold blood.

Psiga · Posts: 3990

James wrote:

We have hell of fucking gun control and our society hasn't collapsed. Also, less shootings!

Less shootings, but how's the crime rate compared to America? I seem to recall that the crime rate in Australia actually went up after gun control became more widespread -- though the article may have just been one side of the overall story.

Like I said in the other thread, civilized nations lose more people to car accidents than to shootings. The car accidents don't seem to be enough to throw everyone into a loop, so why all the fuss about guns? I suppose that people perceive cars as being more necessary than guns, despite being stastically more deadly. Fair enough, I guess.

aderack · Posts: 5018

Of course, guns also have many more legitimate and labor-saving uses than cars. Say, if you forget your keys. You'll do much less damage to your door by shooting the lock off than by driving your Hummer through the front of your duplex.

Psiga · Posts: 3990

Tazers and bump-keys agnes

aderack · Posts: 5018

And what if I lose the TV remote?

Psiga · Posts: 3990

Why, you sir are a thinking man's thinking man: There is nothing good enough on the television to warrant its functional use. Either a gun or an automobile would do a fine and fancy job of destroying it, what they call the 'boob tube'.

aderack · Posts: 5018

Hey, I'm not trying to destroy it. If I really wanted to break my television, I wouldn't need to go to my local black marketeer for an assault rifle; I'd just use my shoe!

Takashi · Posts: 820

If by that you mean that pointing an assault weapon to the screen produces good television then by all means, the world requires your heavy-caliber automated machinery.

aderack · Posts: 5018

See, someone gets it: guns aren't a weapon -- they're a deterrent, for all of the bad things in the world. In a world without guns, what would you use to prevent yourself being shot by all the heavily-armed criminals that roam our streets, threatening our domestic security? Your shoe?

duckzero · Posts: 244

I'm not completely sure what I would do about gun control. At the same time, I don't disagree with some countries banning sales of guns of all types but .22's, but at the same time, it's not like every person who buys a gun will use it for harm, even if provoked.

Now, when you apply gun control to the criminal element (I'm including militias), yeah, you can immediately see a need for gun control. I don't want to drive around in N. Dakota, only to have my whole body explode because some nut in a camp believes i'm a federal agent and shoots me with a .65 caliber sniper rifle. Yeah, that dude does not need to have a gun. Anywhere where the local population feels the need to pack heat at all times, could use a bit of gun control. But, there's no way to universally apply that, it would have to be at a state level.

We should just sell more knives, everyone could use entertaining knife fights, rather than whem, blam thank you ma'am gun fights! Yeah... no, i'm kidding.

aderack · Posts: 5018

duckzero wrote:

it's not like every person who buys a gun will use it for harm, even if provoked

No kidding. And again, since guns automatically make people smarter and more careful, it's ridiculous to think there's any danger handing them out to people who don't belong to the criminal underclass.

Psiga · Posts: 3990

The criminal underclass is how Australia was born, and their crime rates went up after their guns were taken away! I smell a conspiracy!

aderack · Posts: 5018

There you go. This thread is over.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

duckzero wrote:

Now, when you apply gun control to the criminal element (I'm including militias), yeah, you can immediately see a need for gun control. I don't want to drive around in N. Dakota, only to have my whole body explode because some nut in a camp believes i'm a federal agent and shoots me with a .65 caliber sniper rifle. Yeah, that dude does not need to have a gun. Anywhere where the local population feels the need to pack heat at all times, could use a bit of gun control. But, there's no way to universally apply that, it would have to be at a state level.

Please shut up. You have heard of innocent till proven guilty? Militias are dumb, but they're not automatically criminal. Wacko takes a shot at you because he thinks you're a fed? Fine, throw him in jail. Deny him the right to bear arms because you THINK he'll be a threat? I'll have to go with Moses on that one. It IS paranoia when they're not really after you.

I love guns. They're great stress relievers, and fantastic equalizers. I also think every child in America should be taught how to use one; not so that they will, but so that they'll know how to handle them. Let them see the damage they can cause (no need to be graphic either; water jugs work perfectly), and teach them how to arm/disarm them. It's all about exposure; the less they see of it in real life, the more they'll believe the bullshit they see on TV and movies. I happen to know a 15-yr old who's a great shot with an Uzi (he was 11 at the time). He went to the range with his grandpa, his uncle, a friend of the family (he brought the Uzi and other toys), and myself. That kid learned more about weapons and gun safety in that one day of shooting than probably all of you combined. You think his mom will ever have to worry about having loaded guns in the house? His school bully?

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

aderack wrote:

Look how much strategy goes into war planning!

You're embarrassing yourself.

Also: From the self defense angle, guns are pretty much the only solution that counts. Cops are great; I respect what they do and (more importantly) what they're willing to do. However, anyone of even mild intelligence who intends to do you harm will wait until the coast is clear, and then it's Mission GO. Will the cops come? Absolutely, if you're still alive to call them after the fact. I'd rather fend for myself.

Maztorre · Posts: 1175

GcDiaz this may blow your mind but those of us in countries that prohibit gun use get along just fine without looking over our shoulder for OH GOD A THREATENING PERSON WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO!?!?

Also most armed security I've come across in America have been absolute dicks. Seemingly a large number of them are there to wear a weapon in public proudly and inflict themselves on everyone else where possible. I'll never trust anyone to carry around a gun responsibly, because when have I seen how they'll respond under a little pressure?

Where I live, guns have been most heavily used by an oppressive occupation force and terrorists who were supposedly fighting my corner whilst performing their own kind of policing in their home areas.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

Maztorre wrote:

GcDiaz this may blow your mind but those of us in countries that prohibit gun use get along just fine without looking over our shoulder for OH GOD A THREATENING PERSON WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO!?!?

Guess what? So do I. I don't even have a gun of my own. Don't really need one.

Sawtooth · Posts: 2350

lol concealed carry

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

Sawtooth wrote:

lol concealed carry

It only takes one surprise encounter with a barrel to convince the casual evildoer to find a different trade.

When FL passed that "right to self-defense" law (aka, people no longer had to run away, but could legally stand their ground and take lethal action if needed), I was wondering how long it would take for the idiots to get killed off. I guess they watch TV too, cuz from the sound of it everything worked out fine.

Sawtooth · Posts: 2350

if weapons are a deterrent why not even bother with a surprise and openly display a gun to not get messed with in the first place?

and it's not a surprise encounter when the concealing in question is the "the obvious bulge in his lower back."

Pijaibros · Posts: 968

I think deer is delicious.

Therefore I am pro-gun.

Banning guns could make people want them more just on the taboo allure and heavy media association with cool. Like drugs.

I agree with GcDiaz. Best way to lessen danger is educating people about it. Most people I knew with guns just buy one and put it away in a drawer never intending to learn how use it.

km · Posts: 171

Yeah, to elaborate on my point in the to post about the whole education thing, I hear about people's WW2-soldier father or grandfather dying, and leaving behind a loaded .45 automatic they kept in a drawer someplace, for self defense. These people then proceed to (somehow) figure out how to remove the magazine, and now think the weapon is forever safe, and treat it like a toy, doing shit like pointing at people and going "bang!".

... Too bad grandpa liked it hot, and there's still a round in the chamber.
If only they would play Russian Roulette with it...

Easily counteracted by making sure people have a modicum of knowledge about this shit, other than TV and movies. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, though, especially to catch people with inherited guns like in the scenario above. If you inherit a weapon, you still need a new permit for it, right? Maybe there. Might piss off/inconvenience someone who already owns a gun, but if they aren't assholes, hopefully they will understand.

Also, aderack, what about shoe guns?!

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

Sawtooth wrote:

if weapons are a deterrent why not even bother with a surprise and openly display a gun to not get messed with in the first place?

Because they're still guns. Strangers with visible firepower make some people nervous. Those people then feel the need to escalate. It becomes one big stupid dick contest until someone wakes up in a bad mood and gets shot for appearing threatening. Then we're back to square 1.

Takashi · Posts: 820

GcDiaz wrote:

Remember, they prey on the weak.

Sorry, but sayings like that are hilarious to me.

At any chance, I agree with obligatory weapon training. My issue here is lack of responsability with weapons. Like, I dunno, drawing people into the woods and stealing their cameras with a handgun.

Mr. Mechanical · Posts: 1890

aderack wrote:

km wrote:

Hmmm... It seems that criminals really don't have much of a problem finding guns, even when they are banned, or otherwise prohibited by law...

I say we should just deport the criminal subclass. What are we keeping them around for, anyway?

Somebody's got to go to prison, so the states can get that gub'mint money!

aderack · Posts: 5018

GcDiaz wrote:

From the self defense angle, guns are pretty much the only solution that counts.

Defense against... people with guns? Ones predominantly bought for self defense?

Excellent. Four stars.

LegatoB · Posts: 1546

aderack, this thread has given me a new appreciation for you.

The rest of this thread is crap, though. Not as crap as that home invasion thread in the Axe, but still crap.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

aderack wrote:

Defense against... people with guns? Ones predominantly bought for self defense?

Defense against... people with weapons. Ones predominantly bought with hostile intent.
EDIT: Or not. Common household items can still cut, stab and bludgeon.

Seriously, stop.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

Takashi wrote:

GcDiaz wrote:

Remember, they prey on the weak.

Sorry, but sayings like that are hilarious to me.

Especially with the italics (nice touch!). But hey, it wouldn't be a cliche if people hadn't been repeating it for ages.

aderack · Posts: 5018

GcDiaz wrote:

Defense against... people with weapons. Ones predominantly bought with hostile intent.

We're still talking about the criminal underclass, right? Just making sure.

I mean, who else would buy a weapon with hostile intent?

Sawtooth · Posts: 2350

GcDiaz wrote:

Sawtooth wrote:

if weapons are a deterrent why not even bother with a surprise and openly display a gun to not get messed with in the first place?

Because they're still guns. Strangers with visible firepower make some people nervous. Those people then feel the need to escalate. It becomes one big stupid dick contest until someone wakes up in a bad mood and gets shot for appearing threatening. Then we're back to square 1.

a strange game. the only winning move is not to play -_________-

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

Sawtooth wrote:

GcDiaz wrote:

Sawtooth wrote:

if weapons are a deterrent why not even bother with a surprise and openly display a gun to not get messed with in the first place?

Because they're still guns. Strangers with visible firepower make some people nervous. Those people then feel the need to escalate. It becomes one big stupid dick contest until someone wakes up in a bad mood and gets shot for appearing threatening. Then we're back to square 1.

a strange game. the only winning move is not to play -_________-

If only we could confiscate all the game pieces. That's one move I'm definitely for, just as soon as it can be done with 100% accuracy and in the blink of an eye. Wouldn't want that guy at the end of the line to change his mind. Nor would I trust the ones handing out the toys for tots. Until then, leave well enough alone.

duckzero · Posts: 244

GcDiaz wrote:

duckzero wrote:

Now, when you apply gun control to the criminal element (I'm including militias), yeah, you can immediately see a need for gun control. I don't want to drive around in N. Dakota, only to have my whole body explode because some nut in a camp believes i'm a federal agent and shoots me with a .65 caliber sniper rifle. Yeah, that dude does not need to have a gun. Anywhere where the local population feels the need to pack heat at all times, could use a bit of gun control. But, there's no way to universally apply that, it would have to be at a state level.

Please shut up. You have heard of innocent till proven guilty? Militias are dumb, but they're not automatically criminal. Wacko takes a shot at you because he thinks you're a fed? Fine, throw him in jail. Deny him the right to bear arms because you THINK he'll be a threat? I'll have to go with Moses on that one. It IS paranoia when they're not really after you.

I love guns. They're great stress relievers, and fantastic equalizers. I also think every child in America should be taught how to use one; not so that they will, but so that they'll know how to handle them. Let them see the damage they can cause (no need to be graphic either; water jugs work perfectly), and teach them how to arm/disarm them. It's all about exposure; the less they see of it in real life, the more they'll believe the bullshit they see on TV and movies. I happen to know a 15-yr old who's a great shot with an Uzi (he was 11 at the time). He went to the range with his grandpa, his uncle, a friend of the family (he brought the Uzi and other toys), and myself. That kid learned more about weapons and gun safety in that one day of shooting than probably all of you combined. You think his mom will ever have to worry about having loaded guns in the house? His school bully?

See, what I said is not completely untrue. Militia's, Gangs, Police, your neighbor, EVERYONE needs a bit of restraint when it comes down the weapons available. Listen, the media criminalized the Black Panther Party when they decided to bear arms, now, I agree that they were completely right in what they were doing, and they were within their rights. But, when you give an already marginalized group of people (the BPP, random militia in N. Dakota, tamil tigers, etc...) a bad rep, and they have guns on hand, by default everyone affiliated with them becomes Guilty until proven innocent.

The only reason I brought up some of the wacko militias was that before 9/11 there were over 200 domestic terrorist plots thwarted by the same guys up in the general area.

Now, that really was'nt so bad was it?

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

aderack wrote:

GcDiaz wrote:

Defense against... people with weapons. Ones predominantly bought with hostile intent.

We're still talking about the criminal underclass, right? Just making sure.

I mean, who else would buy a weapon with hostile intent?

I don't understand, are you turning this into a debate on the class system? Criminals come from all strata, so there goes that. Out with it.

GcDiaz · Posts: 1057

duckzero wrote:

But, when you give an already marginalized group of people (the BPP, random militia in N. Dakota, tamil tigers, etc...) a bad rep, and they have guns on hand, by default everyone affiliated with them becomes Guilty until proven innocent.

That's public perception. God help us if it ever becomes the standard of law. I personally don't care what they look like until they actually do something. Comes from associating with brigands and undesirables.

You'll have to pry this top post FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS! Heh.

shnozlak · Posts: 704

I find the best deterrent is an idling chainsaw.

There has recently been an increase in the use of machetes in gas station hold ups, jewelry store robberies and the like. Discuss.

Clash! · Posts: 631

shnozlak wrote:

I find the best deterrent is an idling chainsaw.

There has recently been an increase in the use of machetes in gas station hold ups, jewelry store robberies and the like. Discuss.

That would seem to increase the "Hero Effect".

Sure they are frightening blades, but if I throw a glass jar of lighters at his face from a distace I have a good chance of not getting harmed.