IC Forum Archive

BalbanesBeoulve · Posts: 2126

Guys, I didn't like the story that much. It took me 80 hours to beat, and there were still a ton of loose ends. We only met 1 Rozarian, and not much even happened with them. I was really expecting to go to Rozaria at some point.

The characters also felt a bit generic. I dunno, I like them, but the character development seemed weak. They each had 1 thing, and once it was addressed, that was it. Vaan had his brother's death. Balthier had his past in the Emire and his dad. Fran had leaving her village, Basch had his brother, and Ashe had her dead husband and getting backt he kingdom. Penelo had nothing. They were all pretty 1 dimensional.

Someone said that the game isn't melodramatic, but I guess I like melodrama.

Though I think part of the problem may be how much the main story is stretched out by the hunts and leveling. 80 hours is a ton. The game could probably be finished in a fraction of the time if you just go from area to area and ignore the hunts and optional quests.

On the plus side, Balthier and Cid are totally related to Mustadio, rad.

another god · Posts: 1629

The story in XII pretty much sucks.

The first couple hours is pretty good, actually, but it really fucks up later. It suffers a lot of FFVII syndrome, but the world isn't nearly as fun. I mean, fuck, Archades fucking sucked. It was so boring. So boring.

Not to mention that Cid sucks.

*Ugh*

There was so much potential! Fuck... thanks SE... way to make me want more.

bort · Posts: 319

Yeah. It's really fucking boring. I was thinking about this when I went back into the sewers in the beginning of the game to kill the Orthros and remembered how drastically different the beginning felt. I thought that after the first five hours or so and all the shit in the beginning before you get your whole team that it was just heating up or something, but it's entirely the opposite. I was about to make a bunch of posts about how it - while kind of "dry" or whatever - seemed like the most tight and focused Final Fantasy story there ever was and whatever the hell else. Good thing I didn't because essentially nothing happens after that point!

I haven't beaten it, but I think I can safely say that having not seen the main villain (I think?) for thirty hours that the story pretty much sucks. Also Basch has said zero words for the past five cutscenes or so. Even without marks and dungeons and leveling, he still has like 30 lines in the whole game.

I don't really understand how this vacuum of plot/character development happened. Final Fantasy Tactics had more than this. Even Vagrant Story had more than this. Fuck, I feel like I know more about CANOPUS and GILBERT or other pointless characters in Ogre Battle than I do about Vaan and co. And then I consider that this is a FINAL FANTASY game and yeah I am pretty much clueless how somebody at Square didn't play this and say "what the fuck guy where is the talking" (for better or for worse).

Also it is not melodrama it is lacking (there are plenty of ANCIENT RELICS and exploding airships and shit) but uh... any concept of what makes a well-put-together story.

If it wasn't so much fun to LEVEL MY DUDES and kill monsters and stuff I would really hate this game.

BalbanesBeoulve · Posts: 2126

I'm glad you guys agree with me.

It's fucking bizzaro world. We like a final fantasy for the gameplay but are meh for the story. Then there's the fact that 90% of the time the game is playing itself. What is going on!?!?

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

BalbanesBeoulve wrote:

I'm glad you guys agree with me.

It's fucking bizzaro world. We like a final fantasy for the gameplay but are meh for the story. What is going on!?!?

We've been spiritually overlayed by Japan of 1992; that's what's going on.

another god · Posts: 1629

I kinda wish that there were more airship battles that you participated in. Also, where is the typical boat-trip-with-a-battle-against-Kraken?

If anything, though, I'd really love to see FFVI remade with this game's battle engine.

wourme · Posts: 101

I just finished the game and I, too, was ultimately underwhelmed by the story. It really was pretty exciting in the beginning--finding out that Basch is really a hero, Fran reacting to the mist, Larsa revealing his identity, etc., but it just sort of gradually lost its momentum. I think the point at which my high opinion was first shaken was the meeting with Cid in the tower, and things never fully recovered.

Kind of disappointing that summons were so useless, too. I never even bothered trying a few of them--I guess I should have, just to see their animations.

I can't complain too much, though--I still think there's a lot more positive here than negative, overall. Many times I thought that I should be bored with just running around and fighting yet another variety of wolf, cat, horse, snake, etc., but somehow it never got old. I probably left a lot undone when I finally decided to end it, but I think I would have tired of it had I played longer.

One small thing I really liked are the "entites." I liked the danger of seeing one approaching and having to abandon what I was doing and run away--especially when their life meter turns orange. One trapped me early in the game between the stairs to the oil platforms and the caverns that were way too hard for me to enter. I barely escaped. It was actually kind of disappointing to go back and beat a few of them late in the game when they were no longer even especially challenging.

gktime · Posts: 116

I actually enjoyed the story, though I was a bit disappointed when it slipped into taking the evil sword to smite the evil power around giruvegan or so. I knew that was coming at some point, but I was hoping for 'political intrigue' to take the focus.

No trite romance stuff is always a plus.

Lestrade · Posts: 817

Thanks for posting these comments. I'm not going to waste my time with the game now; I don't like the gameplay at all, and if the story isn't there either, I can safely move on without regret.

dark steve · Posts: 3002

Guys Lestrade quit before he even got Penelo get mad at him >:|

The story's serviceable enough. At the very least, the writing and translation is at a level where the game can sell itself for what it is. Or does it get worse? I haven't finished the game and I've only just got Reddas in my party so I don't know if takes a turn for the worse or if I'm in the middle of a downswing already or what (that's right I came in here anyway, ain't afraid of no spoilers). You've gotta admit though, even if it's just star wars warmed over (and even if yes, you fight god (or it seems like I will) and somebody DOES hate their dad, it's still nice the game can present itself to me like I'm a grownup).

This thing really does itself justice as a dungeon crawler and an exploration-based game, though, so if it went to shit right now I don't think i'd mind so much.

ole · Posts: 52

I'd say the problem is that the story bits are drowned by the game itself. Especially with all the incentive you're given to constantly wander off the main quest.

Watching the cutscenes back to back on YouTube, it all flows rather well. And emphasizes the usual disconnect found in a lot of videogames and most RPGs between what you're being told and what you're given to play.
It's literally a movie, broken into pieces and sown across a game.

I think I liked it.

internisus · Posts: 961

I agree with the general sentiment here.

Another thing is that the plot is really discombobulated overall. For one thing, it feels very odd to spend the entire game collecting mythical power items like the Sword of Kings and even to have them be equippable in battle, but for both game and story purposes they are just useless. You never even use the Sword of Kings in a cutscene or anything. I can't remember why we needed it in the first place. Kills nethicite or something. Each plot segment is just a fetch quest, and it's very disappointing.

There are some moments of excellent writing, though. Some of the political stuff, like the expositive speculation on what would happen if the resistance acted here or if they allied with Rozarria now or what have you. Well done material. Also, I remember in particular one moment in which Basch contemplates about shame, regarding the notion of allying with the Empire. His thoughts struck me as very mature.

I wish this game were easily moddable somehow. I love it so goddamn much in such a halfway way.

Edit: On reflection, if you forget for a moment how different this game is from FF in general, it's pretty plain that the storytelling suffers from the same basic problems FF and most jRPGs have always had with storytelling through videogames. The problem is precisely as ole put it. It's just so odd, though, because the gameplay that diverges from the main plot offers the perfect means to tell story at the player's pace. The game just needs to be more about all the hunting and epic fighting rather than have that be the diversion.

Agent Orange · Posts: 194

I love you guys for finally agreeing with me

internisus · Posts: 961

Okay.

another god · Posts: 1629

Guardian, why the fuck are you not making games yourself?

internisus · Posts: 961

What?

Intentionally Wrong · Posts: 673

He's saying that anyone who's so full of ideas about the craft of videogames should be putting that knowledge to use. Depending on how you wanna draw the inflection, he could be saying it in either a praising or demeaning way, but that's the gist of it.

internisus · Posts: 961

Well, part of it is I couldn't tell if he was insulting me or being sincere, but also I just don't see how that came from my comments on FFXII's plot?

another god · Posts: 1629

internisus wrote:

I wish this game were easily moddable somehow. I love it so goddamn much in such a halfway way.

internisus · Posts: 961

I still don't understand. Are you suggesting that I make FFXIII all by my lonesome? Or that I mod a PS2 game with no tools of any kind?

ole · Posts: 52

I'm pasting this here since it's the appropriate thread :

Intentionally Wrong wrote:

BalbanesBeoulve wrote:

There are parts where it seems Ashe is getting into Vaan. Like whenever she sees Rasler, but then he disappears and realizes she's looking at Vaan.

Right. The game also seems to suggest that Vaan Sees Dead People. First with the Vaan and Reks in the white room scene, then in Vaan and Ashe's conversation after Raithwall's Tomb. Do they ever go anywhere with that?

I assumed the white room is just a dreamy flashback. Vaan did visit his brother.

So yeah, Vaan and Ashe are linked because they both lost a loved one to the war. But that's not all, they're both out for revenge!!!
That seems to be the catalyst for the ghostly appearances. Remember how Vaan stops seeing them after his little speech at the Garif village (I'm through with it etc.) while Ashe remains undecided about what she would do with the nethicite until the very end ?
Not sure how the Vaan/Rassler confusion ties into it though...

On an unrelated note, there's plenty of neat stuff in the cutscene direction when you're really looking.
Did you notice the couple of scenes in Archades' throne room go from daylight (when Gabranth reports to Emperor Gramis) to dusk (Gramis' assassination) to night (Vayne -now sitting on his father's throne, Cid and Venat plotting before the game's final hours) ?

Boo · Posts: 47

BalbanesBeoulve wrote:

We like a final fantasy for the gameplay but are meh for the story. Then there's the fact that 90% of the time the game is playing itself. What is going on!?!?

What if the structure in FFXII is identical in both gameplay mechanics and story mechanisms ?

another god · Posts: 1629

internisus wrote:

I still don't understand. Are you suggesting that I make FFXIII all by my lonesome? Or that I mod a PS2 game with no tools of any kind?

Or maybe you could get into game development. The guy who made fLOw for the PS3 was contracted by Sony after they saw his MFA project. XNA is an XBox development platform meant exclusively for independent developers. Wii development kits cost 1.7k. Game development tools on the PC are even cheaper. Even big companies are making it easier for game development.

Obviously, you're not going to make FFXIII, but game development is getting more focused on the art/design/direction and less on the programing.

internisus · Posts: 961

I wish I had some idea of what a non-programmer could do with a dev kit like any of those. I suppose there's likely information around regarding XNA and its abilities and interfaces. Years ago, when Sony had that Playstation dev kit, I came close to getting one. Again, though, it was hard to find assurance of what I would be able to do with it.

another god wrote:

Obviously, you're not going to make FFXIII, but game development is getting more focused on the art/design/direction and less on the programing.

What makes you say that, exactly?

Woodard · Posts: 40

internisus wrote:

You never even use the Sword of Kings in a cutscene or anything. I can't remember why we needed it in the first place.

?

Yes they do. It's what Reddas uses to destroy the Sun Cryst in Ridorana. It's a symbol of liberation where as the sword of contract is a symbol of vengeance.

internisus · Posts: 961

oh. i'm not there yet. =( sorry.

Woodard · Posts: 40

Oh shit.

Sorry.

Didn't realize.

internisus · Posts: 961

You don't have to apologize. This is clearly a thread for people who've finished the game. I'm in Giruvegan, which I think must be sort of close. I just wanted to comment on the plot as its unfolded so far.

another god · Posts: 1629

internisus wrote:

I wish I had some idea of what a non-programmer could do with a dev kit like any of those. I suppose there's likely information around regarding XNA and its abilities and interfaces. Years ago, when Sony had that Playstation dev kit, I came close to getting one. Again, though, it was hard to find assurance of what I would be able to do with it.

another god wrote:

Obviously, you're not going to make FFXIII, but game development is getting more focused on the art/design/direction and less on the programing.

What makes you say that, exactly?

Programmers are being contracted to make programs that help non programmers make games. The casual game market is the next big thing (CNBC's entire gamer's week concluded as much, so does like, Aderack). I said this yesterday to a prospective middle age PS3/Wii purchaser (it's for his son):

You know, it doesn't matter if it's $250, $400, $600, or $1,000,000 dollars. You're going to know it's a videogame no matter how good it looks.

He totally bought it.

And while I'm talking about aesthetics, that part of the game (realistic graphics) is still really a programmer asset. No one really cares if it looks any more real, they just care if it interests them. When I told him that the PS3 had a lot of power to render thousands of soldiers and hundreds of explosions I almost lost his attention. When I started talking about the Wii reading his golf swing he got interested.

schwartzvald · Posts: 3

The vacuum of plot development in FFXII, in my opinion, comes a lot from them having to rush and finish a whole mess of non-fmv non-voice scenario scenes, which are, to me, the worst part of the game.

Which all flows back to the original reason why the game is lackluster... because it was a failed attempt to convert the Final Fantasy franchise into a Matsuno/Akiyama/Yoshida/Minagawa game (I.E. Vagrant Story team).

I'll bet there were constanly producers checking up on the project, making sure the game was "true to the Final Fantasy series". Anyone who says that a team would get "full creative control" with S-E's #2 franchise is full of it. We already know that the original ideas for the main character were nixed, changing Vaan from a rugged guy from the icy north to a whiny sissy mary with a girlfriend that seems to have no good reason to stick with him. I doubt that was the only thing changed by the "oversight" committee.

That, and there were so many Final Fantasy "standbys" to be adhered to... potions, weaponry, airships, moogles... and Ivalice was also already pretty defined after Tactics Advance. It's ironic the game has Star Wars-like cutscenes, because, like Star Wars, it's another franchise that has backed itself into a creative corner, located in a continuity hell.

It's interesting that Matsuno folded, but the rest of the team could finish out. As much as I like Matsuno, he should have sucked it up and just finished the game the way they wanted it, THEN quit. Getting "sick" and handing it off to that piece-of-crap Kawazu is a bad way to go out.

Just my opinionated two cents. Still, I enjoyed the game somewhat. Does anyone know offhand what scenes were added for the U.S. release? I heard some were cut from the JP version due to being too gory, or something.

Ging · Posts: 841

I imagine a lot of things were cut from the game to make it more accessible.

Matsuno's games all have several violent scenes of politcal assassinations and such, and complicated political drama, etc. etc., which is probably not so good when the series' primary audience is about 14. I'm guessing the sparse story is because so much of it is just cut out.

Should have loosened it up considerably, a goal more related to your exploration and hunting and such would have been better.

another god · Posts: 1629

Actually, the one thing that I was amazed with was how cohesive the world was. I mean, they fucking jampacked a ton of Final Fantasy mythos in there.